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PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   3857 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for August 18, 2024

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Is there any way to tease apart the retention rate of the ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox in America? There seems like a lot of different possible elements at play:

  • Orthodox schooling

  • The narratives of the religion versus the action-prescriptions of the religion

  • The ethnic homogeneity of most orthodox (Eastern European Ashkenazi)

  • Ostracization for defectors

  • [Whatever I’m missing]

ultra-orthodox and modern orthodox in America?

Just a note on (missing) context: it took me a moment to realize you were talking about Orthodox Jews, and not Eastern Orthodox Christians; it was ambiguous for me up until "Eastern European Ashkenazi."

My bad, “modern orthodox” is Jewish term of art but I forgot that’s not popular knowledge.

@2rafa might have more insight, but my impression is that modern orthodox are basically normal people in the society in which they happen to be residents, who happen to have a bunch of extra rules to follow as a consequence of being religiously eccentric- little different from other high demand religions like Mormons or tradcaths- and ultra-orthodox are very much not, the the extent of many haredi groups refusing to allow their children to learn the local vernacular(they use Yiddish at home and Hebrew for religion) or participate in the secular economy. Groups which do this and aren’t Amish or haredi are called cults.

Right, but “modern orthodox” (a denomination name) still has a high retention rate (in a sense): 60% remain, but 30% leave to become ultra-orthodox (“Yeshiva Orthodox”), and only 10% leave to a non-orthodox flavor or apostasy. So it’s pretty much a 90% retention rate with a push toward ultra-orthodoxy. I agree that modern orthodox are approximately normal in terms of work, taxes, civic participation etc. They still send their kids to specific schools and camps however.

Modern Orthodox is a big range of observance. In the UK a lot of Jews are members of the United Synagogue, which is technically ‘Modern Orthodox’, but are otherwise pretty much secular, don’t keep kosher, aren’t particularly frum, the men don’t wear kippot, many of the kids go to secular (if usually private) school. Jewish summer camp (or secular summer camp that is like 80%+ Jewish, which is how it was for us in NYC and it’s similar in NJ) isn’t so much an orthodox-only or even primarily orthodox thing.

First you'd have to define the difference between "orthodox" and "ultra-orthodox" and which denominations count as which.

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