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Culture War Roundup for the week of August 5, 2024

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Look, I'm operating under the assumption that you guys want more liberal posters here. I'm telling that you contrary to what you guys believe, the reason you don't have so many isn't that liberals don't like hearing views they think are toxic, but rather liberals get tired of the tide of obnoxious argumentation you get here when you either argue for liberal views or become known as a liberal---strawmanning, unjustified personal attacks, and random, derailing accusations of bad faith.

If you read carefully, this is the exact thing that TracingWoodgrains was complaining about. "Unappealing" does not mean "stating values that I find are toxic", it means "obnoxious argumentation that makes it draining to engage, particularly (in this case) the personal attacks and derailing accusations of bad faith".

Therefore, if you actually do want more liberal posters, maybe recalibrate your judgement of the costs and benefits of not moderating these more harshly.

I'm telling that you contrary to what you guys believe, the reason you don't have so many isn't that liberals don't like hearing views they think are toxic, but rather liberals get tired of the tide of obnoxious argumentation you get here when you either argue for liberal views or become known as a liberal

That's a very hard sell considering what I've seen around here over the years. First, it was ages ago by now, but we did have several people flame out not over any obnoxiousness of how a view was expressed, but over the view itself being allowed. This is what happened back when HBD was the talk of the day, and back then the mods even put a moratorium on the subject, because it was freaking the Blues out too much.

The second problem I have is that I never seen anyone complaining about "obnoxious argumentation" have much of an issue when it comes from their side. We've been called every single name in the book, and have it explicitly stated that the only motivation for our views must be some form of bigotry, and 90+% of liberals would either say nothing, outright celebrate it, or rephrase the accusation in a somewhat nicer way ("well, bias is not an obvious thing to see in yourself, so if you were biased, you wouldn't have noticed it, right?"). Whenever a liberal or lefty with a bit more tolerance shows up, I do want to do my part to make them feel welcome, but these sorts of interactions make it seem like they're asking for something they're not prepared to give, so I'm usually left shrugging and saying "sorry, but no".

If you read carefully, this is the exact thing that TracingWoodgrains was complaining about.

I tried talking with Tracing when he was complaining about the dynamics here. I tried expressing sympathy for the dogpiles and other forms of obnoxious argumentation, and the result was that he immediately pivoted to the substance of the views expressed here being unacceptable to him. This is not an isolated experience for me, every time I try to extend my hand to a liberal complaining about the resultant conduct norms here (which I agree are far from ideal, we could be doing a lot better), it turns out the resentment runs a lot deeper.

I'm telling that you contrary to what you guys believe, the reason you don't have so many isn't that liberals don't like hearing views they think are toxic, but rather liberals get tired of the tide of obnoxious argumentation you get here when you either argue for liberal views or become known as a liberal---strawmanning, unjustified personal attacks, and random, derailing accusations of bad faith.

You can tell us that. That is clearly what you believe.

Speaking as a liberal, I do get annoyed by some of the strawmanning and bad faith accusations that get thrown at me sometimes, but I grew a fucking skin and learned who's worth engaging with and who's not. Note also that some of the worst strawmanning and bad faith accusations have come from people to the left of me.