This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Besides the overall inappropriateness of inserting this sort of drive-by attack against a member of this community in a completely unrelated context, the connection you are trying to make to make your attack work is way too contorted. What does "only bad targets" (not having universal principles) have to do with "just trolling" (not acknowledging the impact of your actions), and what does either have to do with the action of Trace's you presumably are still seething about (Sokalling LoTT)? As far as I can tell he neither contended that there are bad targets for being made ridiculous by being baited into posting fakes, nor did he claim that doing so would be inconsequential fun. If anything, his detractors are the ones who were shouting bad target after cheering on any attempt to bait and make ridiculous their opposition before.
It's not an "unrelated context" though.
Ive been reading and commenting in Rat-Adjacent spaces under various pseudonyms since my freshman year of college. I watched the transition of LessWrong from a place to discuss epistemology to a social club for a Silicon Valley nerds to vent thier spleens and "pwn the normies" in real time.
The three people I mentioned were not picked at random, they were picked because they played an active role in that transformation by arguing for the legitimacy of the so-called "dark arts" so long so long as they were weilded "appropriately".
As those "dark arts" gained acceptance, those who were not part of the SV/MIRI/EA clique drifted away and evaporative cooling took over.
I agree with @raakaa is that Scott is a bad example, because as i remember it Scott was one of the few grandees of the rationalist movement to actually stick to his guns and try to push-back against this transformation while it was happening, for this he became a target for these "dark arts" himself.
Call it "Seething" if you like but as @Dean observed last month memory and context are powerful things.
I'm with you as far as lamenting LW drifting from its original purpose, however you want to describe the direction, but what does that have to do with anything? If you want LW fundamentalism, you obviously lost the moment you waded into a CW forum - "politics is the mind-killer" and all that. For that reason alone, neither cancel culture nor opposition to it can be a core LW cause. If you are looking to describe a hypothetical shared ethos of the "annus mirabilis SSC reader diaspora", rather than the LW community, then sure, being against cancel culture is part of it - but making a fool out of LoTT was not cancel culture by any reasonable definition. The post you linked under
also does not seem to contain any argument for Trace either being in the "only bad targets" or in the "just kidding" class, or being in favour of cancel culture. Rather, it just appears to be a dunk that you are particularly fond of. Do you expect me to update in favour of anti-Trace after reading it, so I reason "Trace bad, cancel culture bad, therefore Trace likes cancel culture"?
The point of that subthread was that it was difficult to read the moralistic framing of thier objection as genuine or sincere when they had, up until very recently, been advocating for and engaging in similar behavior and that when confronted with fact thier responce was "screw you" instead of "I screwed up".
My point is that these incidents are not "unrelated" they are examples of the same fundemental failure-mode being discussed and make for a better example than Scott Alexander for the reasons stated above
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I had an account on LW-sphere discourse at the time (2012-2015ish? imo), if not particularly active on LW-proper.
I don't know where you're getting TracingWoodgrains into the Dark Arts stuff. He started his current display name in 2018 in a mix of /r/slatestarcodex and SSC-open-thread proper education-posting. He's mentioned having read LessWrong in the 2010ish space, and it's possible that he commented to some degree, but he hasn't publicized any username he had at the time, and his writing style is vastly different from any Dark Art advocates like fual_sname or 08res (or even adjacent people like nydrawku).
((I've got my complaints about both his position and his tactics, but they're a lot more prosaic.))
Yglesias is absolutely following in that approach, often to the point that's less 'parallel evolution' and more 'who stole whose homework', but I don't think anyone has accused him of being on LessWrong. Contrapoints is less Dark Arts and more Sneer, which is maybe closer to what you're motioning around, but again more someone people in the ratsphere talk about than someone who argued for the legitimacy of the Dark Arts (or Sneer) themselves on LW.
I was introduced to the rat-sphere around late 2012/early 2013 and the transition period I'm thinking of was around 2015-ish. Its hard to point to exactly when the schism began as it happened slowly over time, but it was largely complete by the time Scott had his "You're Still Crying Wolf" moment in 2016.
As for the rest lets just say that those who attended some of the early rat-space meet-ups at the house of the UC professor who carried a duck were a memorable crowd.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link