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PaperclipPerfector  3mo ago (text post)   34124 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 29, 2024

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Can you provide a rigorous distinction between "casual fun sex" and "rape culture"

Do both parties enthusiastically want to have sex with each other? That is casual fun sex.

It’s really not hard to define rigorously. Of course it’s harder to set down a list objective evidence that proves both people enthusiastically wanted to have sex with each other, but notably for the vast, vast majority of casual sexual encounters the facts are not in dispute.

  • -13

Do both parties enthusiastically want to have sex with each other?

What if one or both parties later think "You know what, I wasn't enthusiastic about it?"

Do both parties enthusiastically want to have sex with each other? That is casual fun sex.

This is not a rigorous definition. A rigorous definition would offer a clear way to distinguish the state of "enthusiastically want to have sex with each other" from the absence of such a state.

It’s really not hard to define rigorously. Of course it’s harder to set down a list objective evidence that proves both people enthusiastically wanted to have sex with each other...

...You say it isn't hard, and then explain why it is hard, and make no effort to actually do it successfully.

but notably for the vast, vast majority of casual sexual encounters the facts are not in dispute.

Do you disagree that the vast majority of rapes are unconvicted, and a large majority unreported?

This is not a rigorous definition. A rigorous definition would offer a clear way to distinguish the state of "enthusiastically want to have sex with each other" from the absence of such a state.

It’s a fully rigorous definition, “enthusiastically want to have sex with the other person” is a well-defined state of the world. Separately, it is difficult to provide objective evidence of this state to outsiders, but that doesn’t mean that the definition isn’t rigorous. Fortunately it’s extremely rare for there to be any disagreements.

  • -16

It’s a fully rigorous definition, “enthusiastically want to have sex with the other person” is a well-defined state of the world.

So it's a rigorous definition because it's well-defined? What makes it well-defined? What are the simple, easy-to-assess components that allow us to distinguish A from !A?

Separately, it is difficult to provide objective evidence of this state to outsiders, but that doesn’t mean that the definition isn’t rigorous.

My understanding is that definitions exist to draw distinctions in reasoning, and rigorous definitions allow us to draw distinctions in reasoning rigorously. You seem to be conceding that your "rigorous definition" can't actually draw distinctions in practical examples of the issue encountered in the real world, which is the fact that I'm attempting to discuss with you. If "rigorous definition" is a hindrance, I'm happy to discard the term and use whichever term you'd prefer to encapsulate the problem of actually determining, whether in advance or in hindsight, whether sex was rape or harmless fun, in a way other than simply the woman's say-so.

If on the other hand, you believe that the woman's say-so is in fact all that is needed, that abuse of this power isn't a problem worth worrying about, and that men concerned about this evident power imbalance are just being silly, I'm prepared to take you at your word. At that point, it would be interesting to hear how you reconcile your perceptions with those of Ezra Klein, the state of California, and the Department of Education, which seem to directly contradict you.

Fortunately it’s extremely rare for there to be any disagreements.

You are arguing that sex is basically just harmless fun in the vast majority of cases, and we don't need to think too hard about the exceptions. Klein is explicitly arguing that enough cases are harmful that a considerable portion of all the Fun in sex needs to be replaced by explicit, government-enforced fear.

So it's all fun, except for the parts you don't want to talk about, and those parts need draconian punishments stripped of due process and all the other procedural safeguards. But they're rare, which is why it's okay to be super-loosie-goosey with who the draconian punishments stripped of procedural safeguards will actually be applied to, and why there's no actual need for someone to be able to tell, in advance, whether they're in danger of them.

Klein says there's a crisis that demands immediate action, and damn the consequences. You say everything's fine.

Which is it?

So the fake "1 in 4 women" statistic about college rape counts as something being "extremely rare"?

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