site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 22, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I think this is overstated. DeChambeau isn't really hated, his detractors think he's just more of an annoying kinda weird dude. Mickelson gets more ire, as do the LIV golfers who have generally failed to impress since the move. And of course your wording absolves Patrick Reed from consideration.

Also winning another major does big things for you. Both Koepka and DeChambeau seem fairly well-esteemed to me at the moment, just from idly browsing /r/golf.

Mickelson gets more ire

I havent kept up with golf since my grandfather passed away; what happened with Mickelson?

Partly it has to do with what /u/Rov_Scam pointed out, but I don't think that's the heart of it. Mickelson had long been a fan favourite, the second biggest golfer of the Tiger years, and was playing decently well into his 50s... even won his sixth major in 2021. So for him to jump ship from the tour that had made him a big star felt like a betrayal for people. Especially considering the money involved for his depreciating talent. It's one thing for an up-and-comer to take the big payout; sports careers are unpredictable, you could get a career-ending injury at any time, and lots of golfers simply lose their mojo for no explicable reason. He was also a big instigator of the scheme (he needed to be: big gambling debts!). For a fading older golfer to schism the world of pro golf for his own benefit after decades of being well-loved by the fans and by the prize purses... yeah, people didn't like it.

edit: The other thing to consider is that LIV as a product is just bad. This might all be forgiven if it were equal to or an improvement to the PGA tour in entertainment. It's not. All the changes that have been made to the format (teams, 54 holes, shotgun starts, music, etc.) have made it at various times annoying, crude, stupid, and boring. The talent is there but the players are not competitive. And the viewership as a result is practically non-existent. It exists only as long as the Saudis keep feeling happy about pouring billions of dollars into it per year.

I'll preface this by saying that I've disliked Mickelson since long before it was fashionable. His 2004 Masters win was a nice story but his 'aw shucks public image started to grate on me after that. I remember once in an interview some golfer was asked if everyone on the tour hated Tiger for winning so much and he said that Tiger was actually one of the most respected golfers on the tour and the superstar everyone hated was Mickelson. I also thought it was classless when he injured himself practicing for the 2007 US Open at Oakmont and bitched at the grounds crew for making the rough too thick. I mean, it's a tournament that's known for being exceptionally difficult, hosted by one of golf's most intimidating venues, and he thinks they should have eased up? What was he expecting? Anyway, after jumping to LIV his biographer asked him how he could take Saudi money despite their horrible record on human rights and he responded:

They’re scary motherfuckers to get involved with. They killed Khashoggi and have a horrible record on human rights. They execute people over there for being gay. Knowing all of this, why would I even consider it? Because this is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to reshape how the PGA Tour operates."

In other words, I know they're bad, but they wrote me a big enough check that I'm willing to look past it. After the quote was made public he publicly apologized... to LIV golf management out of concern over the perception that his comments about the Saudis were directed at them personally. He then doubled down on the "golf needs change" rhetoric, which comes off as a bit rich from a guy who's gambled away more than most of his fans will ever earn in their lifetimes.

quote

TIL I like Phil Mickelson. That's how I've always fantasized I'd answer a question like that.

"How do you feel about accepting money for $PROJECT from known ism-ist-ophobes? Will you disavow??"

"Well at the time I felt good about it, but now that you're asking, I suppose I'd have to admit that I feel absolutely great about it. Simply thrilled, really. In fact, I think I'll fly back next Friday to have dinner with them and take some photos together for my professional homepage. I'll buy you a plane ticket so you can join me, they love journalists."

I'd have to work on something spicier but you get the gist.