site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 22, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Gaza was getting power and water and open borders for aid from Israel because Israel is an 'occupying power'. As a foreign state it is entitled to nothing, much less as a hostile one.

Yes, but the inevitable result of them becoming a hostile state de jure is no different than them being a hostile state de facto. Israel wages war against them, wins, and is then once again an 'occupying power' with the obligations that entails.

Being an occupying power sucks. Being the external wrecking ball is fucking fantastic. Ukraine isn"t castigated for wrecking Russian power and economy, not in the same way whining libs protest Israel. You get so much less stupid shit lobbed your way when you are retaliating against an asshole. Even Saudi got cover in response to the Houthi attacks, its only the Kashoggi killing that tanked Saudis international support.

The difference is who/whom, not the de jure state of Gaze vs Ukraine. Israel was responding to an attack; that got them a few weeks of support before the river-to-the-sea people got their act together.

Yea that is a pretty strong possibility that people dislike Russia more than they dislike Hamas, as blindingly stupid as that is Nevertheless nothing obligates Israel to act as an occupier as well, and more importantly nothing obligates Israel to supply power water and food to Gaza. Without Israel the Gazan population would be 20% what it currently is because that strip of land cannot support a populations food and water requirements, much less power and shelter. As a foreign hostile state Israel will get the back and forth of rockets and militants and broken ceasefires, but Israel will not be obligated to give free water and food or open its borders to trade with a hostile neighbour. Let Gaza open its border with Egypt and set up its own port and airport, which still must be free of military function lest they lose their protected status too. I won't hold my breath