This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I told you what I think is necessary for that characterization to be fair, and it's entirely missing from the argument. What they did is bad enough, there's no need act like they were intending to kill him.
If they weren't intending to kill him, or at least holding reckless indifference to the possibility of killing him, then riding him down in trucks with guns out sure is a special way to not intend to do it.
If they intended to kill him, waiting to do that until they're grappling with him is an even more special way to do it.
They were reckless, that's my entire point. You're trying to ascribe intentionality to it, which is plainly inaccurate.
They never grappled with him. They shot him from a distance from their trucks. They were quite safe.
I take your larger point about the intent needed for the legal definition of muder. I don't much care to play mind reading games, other than noticing that for people not intending to kill him, they sure aggressively acted in a way that led to them shooting him. Riding someone down with trucks and brandished firearms is very aggressively manslaughtering then and I'd even say "hunting them down". Perhaps even murdering them depending on the jurisdiction.
Come on man, I was already dodging one snuff film, why are you making me look up another one (this one is mercifully frozen before the shot is fired, in case you feel the same way about these sorts of clips), that I had already largely purged from my memory...
My point isn't about the legal definition of murder. Charge these guys with murder for all I care, my point is about What This Says About Society. In my opinion the discourse about the shooting, and it's broader implications, would only be justified if these guys were actually intending to kill from the outset. If they were just reckless that's bad enough on it's own, we don't need to make up a whole story about "good ol' boys blowing away an outsider acting suspiciously in someone else's neighborhood".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link