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PaperclipPerfector  4mo ago (text post)   3335 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for July 21, 2024

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So, when it comes to ways to meet new people and get experience "talking to strangers," I've more than once been pointed to bars as a place for striking up conversations with people you don't know. And yet, I've been to the local bar a few times (despite my very limited budget and medical reasons for not drinking), and not once in the hours I've spent there have I seen anyone strike up a conversation with anyone else. Just a bunch of older men sitting alone, drinking and watching sports.

The same is true with the "bar" portion of the local restaurants that serve alcohol and have "bar seating." For that matter, I don't think I've seen a conversation start in a restaurant that wasn't among a pre-existing group.

So, is this just me? Just a product of the sort of places I frequent (for certain not-terribly-frequent values of "frequent") given my poverty? A product of Anchorage, Alaska being a particularly antisocial place? Or was the advice not all that great? Are there some better places?

Being the kind of gregarious and personable it takes to walk into a crowded bar by yourself and walk out with ten friends is like 95th+ percentile social skills and 90th+ percentile extraversion. Most people don’t ever do this, even if they’re otherwise normal, sociable, attractive, generally high quality people. Exceptions are the occasional college party or youth hostel bar in a foreign city in one’s youth, or maybe at a festival or a wedding (and even then…).

If you’re not extremely socially skilled I think a better approach would be just to meet one or two people at a time through work or existing friends and then slowly expand a social circle, which is how most people seem to do it.

meet one or two people at a time through work

I'm an unemployed, unemployable, disabled parasite on the working taxpayer.

or existing friends

I have three friends, all from grade school, two of whom I talk to maybe once or twice a year, and a third who I occasionally hang out with every few months. All are married, and the one I see most frequently has five kids. None have much time to spare, and most have pretty small IRL social circles themselves.

There probably are better bars, and it also depends on what time you're going in. Happy hour is usually going to be a bunch of old men (who can be surprisingly cliquish!) and if you're lucky people 35-55 in for a drink or few after work (These can make for decent conversation.). The younger crowd are rarely going to be there before 9-10PM.

With that, I work at a bar (a cocktail bar that's more divey than it wishes it was) in a college town where the night shift mostly caters to grad students (Well, it wishes it could get more grad students in.), millennial hipsters, and the occasional disgruntled faculty members and actual, interesting conversations can be hard to come by. It's not so much that people aren't willing to talk to strangers (This does vary by age; Gen X and up are more receptive to this and Millennials and Gen Z less so.) as the fact that they usually go out with their spouse or in friend groups that take up most/all of their attention (This is especially true of Millennial/Gen Z women, who tend to go out in groups to avoid conversations with unattached men.). The vast majority of the single unaccompanied patrons are single men that are varying degrees of loser. Working at a bar will improve your social/conversational skills and I imagine that being a patron could as well but unless you enjoy drinking first and foremost it's IMO a really inefficient way to meet people and make friends. At least, it is at the place I work at and the other bars in town are either the same or worse (clientele I don't like, too loud to talk, too dead, etc.). Most of the time it's either the same regulars I deal with (and as bad as the alcoholics can be, the weirdos who don't drink are worse) either every shift or at least once a week or, worse, the place gets taken over by over-40s out for the weekend/for some nearby event that I have little to no interest in talking to. When I was working there consistently I'd say that I had a genuinely interesting conversation with someone new or who wasn't a regular once every 4-6 weeks.

but unless you enjoy drinking first and foremost it's IMO a really inefficient way to meet people and make friends.

So what would be a more efficient way, for someone jobless and poor?

It’s hard and easy at the same time.

Most of the time I’ve only mostly met friends of friends in bars. I’ve found 2 exceptions to this:

  1. Traveling abroad. Some kind of ex-pat place, study abroad town, or it’s fairly common for people to eat at certain restaurants on the map to be by themselves. All those have worked for making new friends.

  2. Had an ex-gf I had really good social chemistry with. We always ate at the bar and I knew before going that I would have a new friend by the end of dinner. Perhaps people do want to make new friends and once you have a formula for it, it starts to happen every time.

Church?

Many will have coffee or fellowship following service. People will likely make an effort to engage with someone new.

Also, isn't this kind of instrumentalizing religion. I mean, it seems like if one were to go to church, the primary reason should be religious belief, not the ancillary benefits? (Sure, I remember some folks in this space tend to discount this position — "Well…" back at SSC comes most readily to mind for mocking it while gloating about his own instrumentalization.)

Religious belief may take time. I wouldn't presume everyone is in the same place spiritually. Sharing fellowship with fellow Christians is a great way to strengthen your faith.

Sharing fellowship with fellow Christians is a great way to strengthen your faith.

But what if you aren't a "fellow" Christian? I'm certainly not.

Not yet. Learning about the faith is good way to begin.

Church?

Never been to one. Grew up pretty much totally irreligious. And several of the churches near me have closed down for lack of people (though one was the "no whites allowed" Samoan church, and another the weird Spanish-only South American "primitivist" denomination). It's pretty much the black Baptist church whose flyers advertise speeches by local Democrat politicians; the Eastern Catholic church whose materials for would be newcomers are all about how their services will differ from the Catholic churches you've certainly already attended (because you better already be Catholic before you show up…); or the tiny Thai Buddhist temple that I have no idea how to go about visiting without, like, interrupting the monks at meditation.

Myself I would look for a protestent church that isn't too large without pride, trans or other current thing flag or banner. Many of these congregations are growing as other current-thing congregations self-destruct.

Most Eastern Orthodox would also have traditional views of marriage and family. They likely also have a formal educational program for adults that some may find appealing. I'm sure they'd welcome newcomers, you could talk to the priest before attending a service if you were nervous or had questions. Many of these congregations are picking up former members of the Roman Church.

Myself I would look for a protestent church that isn't too large without pride, trans or other current thing flag or banner.

This helped me rule out the nearest Lutheran church — not so much the church's webpage, as the LinkedIn page of its woman pastor.

Do you have any opinions on the Pentacostals?

Pentacostals wouldn't be my first choice.

Sadly the congregational church in Anchorage seems to be of the 'open and affirming' sort.

The Christian Church of Anchorage, Anchorage Church of Christ and Faith Lutheran Church looking at their websites are where I start looking for a church home.

The Christian Church of Anchorage, Anchorage Church of Christ and Faith Lutheran Church

Why those three?

I'll also note that the first one is way out on the wrong end (the south end) of town for me. The other two are at least busable, though via multiple buses (and then there's the lack of early Sunday buses). And the third one is just down the street from my parents, which means I know the neighborhood… and no, that's not a positive.

And again, I'm not a Christian, so wouldn't it be kind of wrong to be going to church just for some sort of social benefit?

Briefly searching for churches in Anchorage those were the first three that appeared to meet my criteria of a traditional approach to Protestant Christian theology.

Were I look for a new church I'd visit several that offer traditional teachings until I found a good fit.

You're not a Christian yet. Meeting with and talking to Christians, seeing yourself and the world through a Christian lens is a great way to learn about the Christian faith.

Myself I would look for a protestent church that isn't too large without pride, trans or other current thing flag or banner.

Problem is that I'm limited in transportation, and Anchorage is at once small in population (and shrinking — hence limited selection of churches) but large in geographic size. I've looked specifically at the Eastern Orthodox churches, as Alaska has the highest Orthodox population by percentage (5%) — understandable, given the Russian history. There are two Russian Orthodox churches here. Unfortunately, they're both on the outskirts of town. One (which I've actually had contact with someone who attends thanks to a mutual online acquaintance in Romania) is way out on the southern edge of town, over 9 miles away from where I live, and miles from any of the bus routes. The other is on the northeast edge of town (there are only two roads out of Anchorage), and while I could get there via a couple of buses, they don't really run early enough in the morning, particularly Sundays.

Edit: and that's before the massive reduction in bus services that's coming in a few months.

In my own experience meeting people in bars is easy in Japan, which has an active social culture in such places (it helps that I'm not Japanese and therefore not tethered to norms of uchi/soto or insider/outsider.) Back in the US my experience used to be more similar to yours, but that was not the most urban area. I sometimes feel like most non-urban-dwelling Americans just stay home, or meet online.

There are huge variances in what bars are good for talking to strangers. There are bars near me like you describe, but there are also lively bars with high energy. The high energy bars usually have dancing and cater to a younger crowd (21-30s), some even remove most of the chairs when it gets late so there is more space to dance. The higher energy bars near me are in the downtown area. At these bars sometimes strangers will dance with each other. Not all cities have these types of bars.

If you go to bars where people go to celebrate things (e.g. bachelorette parties) then it is usually acceptable to approach them and congratulate them on whatever they are celebrating.

For talking to strangers maybe a community musical festival would be a better choice. You can chat with vendors, and there are often people at the edge of music area that are up for chatting.

Another option is to consider joining an activity that occurs at a bar. Some bars have volleyball leagues, or outdoor yard game tournaments. You could also join a bowling league as that would be a way to drink with strangers and chat about things.

What kind of bar are you going to? There's dive bars, there's honky-tonks, there's proper nightclubs, there's sports bars, etc. All of these have very different expectations around talking to strangers.

I used to go strike up conversations with strangers at waffle house in my time among the underclass. Maybe Fort Worth is more social than Anchorage in general, but I'm guessing there's a place you can go to talk go strangers, even if they're likely not the best strangers.

What kind of bar are you going to? There's dive bars, there's honky-tonks, there's proper nightclubs, there's sports bars, etc.

Small "Irish" sports bar — the only one in my neighborhood. This part of Anchorage is pretty run down, and the homeless have become a lot more frequent. It must be at least five years now since the Denny's (which had been open since before I was born) closed down due to the costs of crime (vandalism, dine-and-dash, B&E, etc).

Homeless, in Anchorage? Do they migrate south for the winter or just thaw out every summer?

Homeless, in Anchorage?

Yes, indeed. About 3100:

Alaska’s biggest city has an estimated 3,150 homeless individuals and enough room in shelters for all but about 775 people, Johnson said. The city recently brought four more housing facilities, which could create space for another 310 people, but is still seeking winter housing for an estimated 400 to 450 people.

By renting hotel rooms, Johnson hopes to limit the capacity of a mass winter homeless shelter to no more than 150 people — one of the Assembly’s stipulations when releasing the emergency funds. The city wants to use a recently vacated administration building as a makeshift low-barrier shelter, Johnson said.

…

Anchorage, population 300,000, has 40% of the state’s population but 65% of Alaska’s homeless population, Bronson said, adding that the city has spent $161 million on the homeless crisis since 2020.

And with a new, left-wing mayor, we can expect a lot more shelter expansion.

Do they migrate south for the winter

Maybe a few, but not many. Our previous mayor made some comments about offering them airfare, but, as the link above describes, that never went anywhere.

or just thaw out every summer?

And yes, some do end up freezing to death over the winter. Per the link:

Anchorage last winter had a record 24 deaths outdoors among the homeless population, with 11 fatalities occurring in the winter months between October 2022 and April 2023, said Alexis Johnson, the city’s homeless director. The city began keeping records in 2017.

And from the New York Times last November:

One woman died when fire consumed her makeshift shelter in the woods. A man was found dead in the doorway of a downtown gift shop. Another was discovered inside his tent. A running tally of homeless deaths kept by the city’s largest newspaper, The Anchorage Daily News, is now up to 49 — more than double last year’s toll.

“It is fairly depressing, just unimaginable, the number of deaths we have been having,” said Felix Rivera, a member of the Anchorage Assembly who leads the Housing and Homelessness Committee.

The harsh winters in Alaska have long brought dangers for those sleeping outside. But this year, those conditions have joined a confluence of other factors contributing to a dire situation: a housing crisis, the spread of fentanyl and a dearth of shelter beds after the city shuttered a large shelter in a city arena six months ago.

Maybe it's generational -- I have also heard that, and have also never talked to someone I hadn't previously been introduced to at a bar, so far as I can recall. This is not because I am personally off-putting; when I walk around outside in a village setting, I do end up talking with strangers. I have been offered drinks by strangers in rug shops and street corners, not in bars.

On that note, if you can get to them, the villages are a great place for talking with strangers! I've been salmon fishing with strangers despite having no equipment. I've been to some quite interesting holidays -- processing around churches, getting spoons and moose stew for Russian Christmas, a priest recounting deciding to believe in God after asking for and receiving a box of raisins, Gideon style, listening to elders talking about their dreams, singing at funeral wakes for people I didn’t know; lots of interesting stuff! Also folk dances and bonfires with strangers at the Saint John Orthodox Cathedral in Eagle River.

In general, going to holiday and religious events is an excellent way to meet strangers, usually free, and people aren't necessarily all that bothered whether visitors believe in their religion or not, as long as they aren't going on and on about how fake the religion is.

Go to an IRL Toastmasters meeting, or better yet, a Toastmasters area contest. You will feel very accepted.

Go to an IRL Toastmasters meeting

Looking into it, but so far most Toastmasters groups here have gone entirely to Zoom. (And my internet doesn't have the bandwidth and quality for doing that.)

I'm not necessarily looking at the moment, but I was underwhelmed the time I did try going to Toastmasters. That was mostly because I had spent some time before that in the Republic of Georgia, home of the best toasting parties and toast masters in the world, and it turned out that American Toastmasters was not going to train me to be one, which was where my interest lay. I went ahead and hosted some toasting feasts with a couple of friends anyway, and although I am a somewhat lame tamada, they were still much more what I wanted to do.

Maybe it's generational

In my experiences working at a bar, it's definitely generational. Gen X and older of both sexes are vastly more receptive to conversations with strangers than millennials and younger. In particular, young women tend to go out in friend groups that aren't all that welcoming to outsiders, meaning that the rare unaccompanied young woman that is receptive to conversations tends to immediately become the subject of competition for the attention of every single man in the place.

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