This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Where have these ex/motte posters moved to? Twitter, rdrama.net, or somewhere else?
I'm mainly just a lurker, but I've been on this site from the start; and from here, I went on to start using Data Secrets Lox, X, Rdrama.net, and especially Substack. Subjectively, outside of here I enjoy the content and discussions on Substack the most. There are a lot of Discords, but I don't really like using Discord to talk to anons very much.
The Motte and its predecessors have been my favorite parts of the Internet since I discovered SSC around 2013 or 2014. Somehow I still feel the sense of shared heritage and mindset, but I know that it's all fragmenting. I have tried to resist that happening, because I don't think I can build the same feeling of community as a Peachy Keenan fan or Yuri Bezmenov Comrade or whatever. I just came to those things too late. My next "community" will actually probably be the Old Men Eating Lunch group at my church.
More options
Context Copy link
Mostly Twitter, some into EA circles or away from online commentary and into irl stuff, some Discord, a few rdrama, some more than one of them. Twitter is the only one that fulfills a truly similar role.
Sorry for snagging on a single word like this but scenes like vaguely gestures around this one very vividly remind me how absolutely ruinous the advent of Discord has been for niche communities like this one and others I considered myself a part of. It is evaporative cooling personified (software-ified?), seamless and convenient and easier then ever before. Why put up with the constant bile from the rabble on some Mongolian basket-weaving forum when you can always take shelter in some nice Discord server with people who share your perceptions and beliefs? (I am only partly facetious, this question occurs to all of us on different times.) Surely this does not run the risk of creating ever more
hugboxesnice fenced-off areas around the wasteland that is the modern-day internet.At the risk of coming off as hostile (which believe me I am very much not, I'm just a random rube but the piece has been amazing reading and I value your contributions greatly), I'll try to gently posit that this tendency - to solve any intra-community friction that occurs by bouncing out into the wild frontiers of Xitter or into a different subcommunity - is very much part of the problem of why the Motte has quote-unquote "lost the Mandate of Heaven" nowadays [citation needed]. As the saying goes, you're not stuck in traffic. You are not merely seeing it lose the Mandate of Heaven - you and everyone who leaves for greener pastures personally rip out another little shred of it along the way, justified or not, whether you want to or not, as sad and inevitable as that sounds. Especially when you actively advocate for people to join you.
I don't advocate shooting rootless cosmopolitans or something, and sticking together through thick and thin is not always the strictly superior option (although it does historically have its perks!), especially on places that naturally foster disagreement like the Motte - the empire long united must divide, etc. - but I think this endless splintering and constant bound-less motion is incredibly destructive to communities long-term. Getting along is hard, enduring bait is unpleasant, janitor work is thankless, but without any of this a community does not survive. Silly metaphor: you do not generally solve the problem of a dirty, cluttered house by just moving out to a new one every time. (If you do, share advice on finding decent
housescommunities in thiseconomyculture.)I don't understand why various schisms of this kind are so prevalent nowadays, either. Perhaps because Discord (the archetypal example) is popular and the invite system is simple and seamless to use, removing or reducing the trivial inconveniences often associated with building new communities online. Perhaps it's because thick skin does not at all actually seem to be a requirement for the modern internet, although whether that's the cause or effect of the schismogenesis in the water supply seems unclear. Perhaps this is simply cope and even a modicum of seethe on my part. But it's such a fucking shame. We can finally have the communities we want - and the commons we deserve.
I've seen at least one forum get eaten by a Discord channel, and have suspicions it may have happened to a couple more. As someone who has a "no accounts on large platforms" rule (and would likely get banned from Discord for heresy anyway), it's really fucking annoying.
More options
Context Copy link
It's cope and seethe, but it's beautiful cope and seethe that comes from a place of love, and that's noble in its own right. Forums like this are the same as Discord servers. Ones that build healthy local cultures retain people, ones that build unhealthy local cultures slowly drive people away. So it has ever been. Hugboxes are fine and good. People should be coordinating with others who share their interests and their goals. You can build beautiful things alongside your friends, and people should. Spaces with disagreement are great, too, when they can manage it in constructive ways (rdrama, oddly enough, does a healthy job at that), but everyone should have a couple of nice fenced-off hugboxes alongside their PvP zones. I just met up with a dozen people from one of my hugboxes and spent the better part of a week hanging out with a handful of motte lads from another. That is well and good. People should pursue that sort of community.
As for bile and rabble, I spend most of my public online time these days on places famous for bile-filled rabble. I was attracted to Twitter in specific because I noticed that the rationalist-adjacent culture there is healthy. They have leftists, they have right-wing dadposters who would be at home in themotte. People interact with the slice of the community they can handle, and the whole community remains cohesive enough to have meetups and build alongside each other and do beautiful things. By posting there, I increase my incidental exposure to people who really, truly disagree with me from all angles, because each post there might break containment and reveal me to people who share none of my background and none of my ideals. Every day, I engage with more people who truly disagree with me than I ever could here, and watch some of them call me a fascist, others a degen furfag, and still others listen. All of that is well and good.
The above post is an example! I penned a harsh criticism of one of my local sphere's longest-standing malicious critics. He and his friends are discussing it and digging up dirt on me, people in my Twitter circles are discussing it, I'm bantering and bickering back-and-forth with Eliezer Yudkowsky about it. People stay in places that fulfill needs for them and leave places that don't. For people who lack a crowd who want to turn every conversation into a referendum with their past grievances that I've acquired, and who broadly align with the local ideological frame, the Motte remains a pleasant enough place, and they're welcome to keep enjoying it. But I have a whole internet to engage with people who disagree with me, and no reason to share a community with those who live for dredging up historic grievances and others who shrug and make their excuses for others who do so, when I can't give that course of action the response it deserves.
You're right, though. Leaving is part of the problem, and that's why I've clung on for years here after falling out of love with this space. But the pastures really are greener elsewhere these days, in a way they were not in the past, and parts of that "elsewhere" remain very much part of the same meta-community as this.
I've given my advice on finding decent communities in this culture. The Twitter postrat scene is a dozen times healthier than the Motte at this point, and much more rewarding for high-quality posters. Substack as well. People can and do participate both here and there. Quality rises over there, and the upside there is tremendous. It's a place where you talk to public figures and not just about them, a place where you wind up chatting with and following as many people who disagree with you as you and they can handle, a place where usually you chat peacefully with your friends and occasionally the world gazes on. It's not for everyone, but they succeeded at culture-building in a way that matters. And it's more the commons than this place! It's a commons that is actually common.
I appreciate your thoughts and your passion here, and those who don't have my idiosyncratic reasons to leave have plenty of cause to stay and try to build in this place. Your sense of duty towards community speaks well of you.
To clarify I am not unbiased here either, I've seen a certain "community" of mine become borderline unusable over a year-plus-something of incessant baitposting, social jockeying and all the other joys of anonymous imageboards. Fewer and fewer sane people remained every day, until one day I woke up and the sun rose in the east and nearly every single person worth engaging with has vacated the premises or sequestered themselves in some kind of comfy Discord, playing games and interacting
parasocially with each other while the thread became a smoking wasteland. Hell, there's even been a literal schism, splitting the subject matter to two different boards (entirely organic from what I could tell, too). Far be it from me to hold their choice against them - but that, too, is a choice they made. Hide X threads, ignore X posts, do not reply to X posters, etc. Everyone misses the old internet, but apparently no one wants to carry on its spirit.It's been some months but the main "community" does not show signs of recovery, because evaporative cooling is not your friend. Still, some people endure and attempt to interact in good faith, because the sense of community matters more to them than their individual experience. Goes without saying that it's just not the same anymore.
In other words since I may have overdone hiding my power level, I will rephrase more bluntly - you leaving is a conscious choice you make. You were not unfairly forced out by a shadowy cabal. You took the bait, and could not tear from the hook in time. It happens to the best of us, god knows I longposted at people who simply hurled one-liners back at me with glee, but saving face with the smoke of a burning bridge is not the way. Especially not while actively advertising to try and pull people along while publicly claiming to care about the community's longevity.
Furthermore, I will admit I really did expect someone that does investigative work of your caliber to have thicker skin. Blowing up like this on a 1) drive-by bait post 2) made by an obvious troll/alt 3) which got near-instantly shot down by jannies is just, I don't know... undignified, besides giving the shitpoaster exactly what they wanted. I couldn't imagine a bigger trolling W than this and I've seen quite a lot of trolling.
Also, I hope this doesn't come off as smug but the amount of goodbyes someone says while leaving is directly proportional to the likelihood of them returning in the future (my reliable source is that I made it the fuck up). This is not anything worth judgement and I personally will be glad to have you back, but you can at the very least refrain from performatively burning bridges which only ensures the green bastards get to feast immediately in the event of your return.
Hold on, let's be clear.
I'm not blowing up on a bait post by an obvious drive-by troll. I ignored that. I'm responding to people like WhiningCoil and Dean who have been in this community for years, have hated me for years, and who actively want to push me out of this space. I am responding publicly, and clearly, in a way that emphasizes that they are in this space and people I like are leaving it, and that I, too, am leaving it.
The amount of people surprised at my thin skin should give those same people pause about its thinness. I went my whole time here without a single warning; I spend my time online hanging out on Twitter and rdrama and poking the bears of tech centimillionaires and rationalist grantmakers and government agencies and Wikipedia obsessives who spend decades etching their grudges into the public record. When I don't want to react harshly, I don't. In this case, I am, after some thought, telling people who have antagonized me for years precisely what I think of them in a public enough way that uninvolved people can understand exactly what's going on and why.
I don't care about the community's longevity at this point. People who do are welcome to it, but I think it had a great run for many years and stopped being what I loved in it years ago. I've had one foot out the door here for years, and it's time to step out properly. My burning of bridges is not performative--I have too many spaces full of good people for me to possibly keep up with, and dropping one that has many good people and a few miserable ones with altogether too much local-cultural sway is sad only because of history.
You're absolutely right: my leaving is a conscious choice I am making. I was not forced out. Every top-level post I make here, it's clear that plenty of people here appreciate what I have to say. I appreciate their interest, and I appreciate what this community was to me in the past, but I don't think this is a space where I personally should contribute time, energy, or passion any more.
It's possible that well down the line I'll pop back for a bit--never count anything out--but I wouldn't count on it.
The blowup qualifier is imho still accurate but you're right, I mixed up the chain order, my bad.
That... does not sound as reassuring as you seem to think it does. Disagreement and/or even rivalry is entirely fine, but the optimal amount of public meltdowns is definitely zero. It's a "fuck one goat" kind of deal, people either can't get under your skin or they can't - evidently, now they can.
In any case I've said my piece and wish to avoid inadvertently baiting you further, so I suppose I can only show my respectful disagreement and wish you luck in future endeavors on and off the Motte.
More options
Context Copy link
I don't hate you at all. I feel nothing at all about you. When I'm not reading your words on a screen I largely forget you exist. I wasn't even sure I was remembering the right person! But I do have a mostly still functioning long term memory, and perhaps a slightly Kantian sense of honesty which you've offended.
The fact that you can explode with so much narcissistic rage at a guy who struggles to remember you going "Wait, aren't you that guy who did X?" with "YOU'VE BEEN MY MOST DEDICATED HATER FOR YEARS! FUCK YOU! YOU RUINED THIS PLACE!" is astounding.
Methinks you and Trace are both a little guilty of performatively shouting I DON'T CARE I DON'T CARE SO HARD CAN YOU SEE HOW MUCH I DON'T CARE MOFO?!
Listen, I've been here long enough. You've seen me hold a grudge, probably especially so from the vantage of being a jannie. Tell me you honestly think I've treated Tracings with the same grudging, dogged criticism as I had others.
I don't think they even compare. But I think this episode has more or less concluded, and our peanut gallery has made their determinations about who was more persuasive.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Man, this reminds me of a community I used to be a part of for something like 15 years, from my childhood through my early 30's. Started off as a bunch of nerdy kids who liked a thing and created their own space to talk about it. Then we grew up, and politics got more and more involved. Then it became almost entirely about arguing politics and trolling one another's trigger points. We had a benevolent autistic overlord who owned the space and maintained strict neutrality, as most of the old internet used to. Then one user launched a coup, stole the domain name, redirected it to his own servers, and banned everyone he disagreed with. Shortly after he shut the place down entirely because banning us wasn't enough, he wanted there to be no public record of him ever having associated with us what so ever, he considered us so politically untouchable.
Canadians, eh?
Eventually most of us that got banned coalesced around a private discord group one of us set up. But it's just no the same, and many of us still grieve the loss of that community.
That is the part spoken quietly, I think that Discord's simple framework and the very detailed permissions system for server channels has made naked shilling and aggressive status jockeying in this vein much easier and more viable. Especially for culture warriors and clout-chasing
highschoolerssociopaths who are good at (and enjoy) stuff like this but would normally get filtered by the technicalities of setting up their own domain. Discord groomers/kittens are memes for a reason.Man, tell me about it. The discord I'm on is literally just a private space for old internet friends who've known each other for 20+ years to shoot the shit and stay in touch. Share pictures of our kids without using facebook. Crap like that.
Every other Discord I've been on, despite ostensibly being about a video game, manga, tv show, youtube channel, etc still has like 20% of the conversation dominated by adults talking about the divergent gender identity, their polycules, etc and god damned children in the same discord participating inquisitively and with a mixture of yearning and conformance.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link