site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 8, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

13
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I bask in your praise.

I really do recommend the book. I read it with a friend from Singapore, and we both expected it to be in large part about the cruelty of the Japanese and the struggle for survival against them. Instead the cruel Japanese are largely a far-group fact about the universe, the primary struggle is within and among the PoWs. The book started and presents as an adventure yarn, but becomes a withering critique of capitalism.

-The book started and presents as an adventure yarn, but becomes a withering critique of capitalism.

I don’t think Clavell saw it that way himself. He was a fan of Ayn Rand.

OT, not having read Les Mis: is Javert nearly as well written as Grey?

I don’t think Clavell saw it that way himself. He was a fan of Ayn Rand.

It's hard for me to interpret the brilliant scene at the end, where the parachutist liberating the camp looks at the arch-capitalist trader King, and asks why he is well dressed well fed and clean when everyone else is in rags and starved. It's the classic dorm-room smoke session idea of how if an angel or an alien came down, they wouldn't get why some people are rich and some people are poor, man, and how would you explain why one person is rich and another person is starving to them? It's heavy handed!

I don't think he comes down against Capitalism, necessarily. Marlowe, the Clavell self-insert in the best Hemingway tradition, struggles to explain why the King wasn't bad, struggles to explain his glory, after the liberation. And glorious he was! He managed to save Marlowe's arm, and maybe his life! And he could only do that because of his power, which he only had because of his hustle. And to a certain extent, Clavell also simply thinks it right and proper for a man to live by his wits at the expense of others, to risk it all and to dominate or to fail.

It's a very deep and complex critique of capitalism. In many ways, every Clavell novel kind of follows the same plot, with a young Englishman joining a foreign culture and learning its ways. Shogun does this with Japan, Whirlwind with Iran, Tai-Pan with the Hong Kong training colony. King Rat does this, but the culture that Marlowe is indoctrinated into was King Rat's American Capitalism. The King hustles around, yelling things like "Time is money!" and "There's Always an Angle!" and he has a buddy named Tex. He couldn't be more of an American stereotype if he had an Eagle and a Flag tattooed on his arm.

OT, not having read Les Mis: is Javert nearly as well written as Grey?

So it's a tough comparison because they are in very different genres, in addition to simply being very different lengths. Characters are drawn differently in punchy 300 page adventure novels that take place over maybe six months, versus 1600 page monstrosities that cover generations with massive asides about the battle of Waterloo and the French Sewers. But in my mind, I liked Javert better as a character, Grey was just a bit too much of a butt monkey for me. Javert is defined by his dedication to rules; Grey is driven primarily by his deep envy and jealousy of the King and of Marlowe.