This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
It is well-known that voter ID was, in fact, a plot to disenfranchise young people. The main tell was that discounted public transport passes given to pensioners were eligible ID, but discounted public transport passes given to students and apprentices were not. Jacob Rees Mogg admitted this at the 2023 National Conservatism conference.
It is also well-known that the type of voter fraud that voter ID prevents (i.e. voting in person in the name of someone else) is not a problem in the mainland UK (it was a problem in Northern Ireland during the Troubles, so Northern Ireland has always had voter ID). The most corrupt election in recent British history was the 2014 mayoral election in Tower Hamlets, and the Election Court judgement convicts or at least credibly accuses Luftur Rahman of basically every form of electoral fraud or malpractice under the sun except that one. The in-person voter fraud Rahman committee involved Rahman supporters outside Tower Hamlets voting in their own name after registering at false addresses.
The difference between the US and UK voter ID debates is that there is no legal process where crying "waa waa it's racist" can invalidate a law, so the British left had no reason to do so. The Labour party did put out leaflets in student-heavy areas saying "the Tories are trying to use voter ID to disenfranchise you, here's how to stop them."
If it were really a plot to disenfranchise young people, it would be the least effective way of doing it I could think of.
In order to drink, drive or leave the country anyone 18 or over must have a form of ID which is also valid for voting in an election.
I don’t have much faith in the tories’s competence but I think claiming this to be a serious attempt at gerrymandering is really unfair on them.
More options
Context Copy link
I might be missing something, but I don't see why you need a plan more complicated than "Get an ID card".
If "voting in person in the name of someone else is not a problem in the mainland UK" then I can also claim it's simply not a meaningful form of disenfranchisement. It's bizarre to any outsider that this is something controversial rather than the most basic security feature.
More options
Context Copy link
What are the conditions for obtaining the elderly pass vs the youth pass? In the US some make a similar argument with regards to a firearms permit vs a student ID, and it turns out that, I think, even non-citizens can obtain the latter. But I am certain the former has more checks.
Both can be obtained easily by non-citizens who meet the other requirements (as can a driving license, which is the most commonly used form of acceptable ID) - this is specifically an identity check and not a citizenship check. British citizenship law is such a mess that requiring proof of citizenship to vote would effectively disenfranchise everyone who hadn't already proved their citizenship to apply for a passport (admittedly, 86.5% of UK adults do have passports). The official reason given was that the checks made when issuing elderly passes are more stringent but it isn't clear why - in particular there is no attempt to verify the photo if you apply for an elderly pass by post, whereas the photo on a student pass is cross-checked against the photo on your student ID.
More options
Context Copy link
I would expect most young people to have at least a driver licence if not a passport. Some might not have but I think they could obtain some kind of ID. Although many would not bother.
Non-citizens holding these documents doesn't matter because the electoral register is made separately and non-citizens are not included and will not be able at the polling station.
Tangential, but I wouldn't be surprised if passports were more common than driving licenses, especially among young people.
That's because almost everyone in the UK goes on cheap holidays to Europe. Spending time on holidays in the UK is more expensive and only rich people can afford it.
It would be more accurate to say that both the poor and the rich will (sometimes) vacation in Britain, but the middle all go abroad. You have Butlins / Blackpool and St Ives and $4m vacation homes by the sea in Devon but little in between.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link