site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 24, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

10
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Some, yes. But you have to identify them from the careerists who will mirror the current pope's opinions (cf. president choosing a judge to nominate). This was a problem the previous popes faced with their appointments.

And with the dire shortage of priests, kicking anyone out is something a bishop has to be very careful about. You can't just kick out everyone who prays the rosary, because then you'd have to shut down almost every parish in the diocese. Closing or merging parishes massively upsets people.

For example, many bishops have slow-walked suppressing the TLM, not because they're fans of it, but because they don't want to piss off even a small number of people in their diocese. Closing even a single parish is a much bigger headache.

You can't just kick out everyone who prays the rosary, because then you'd have to shut down almost every parish in the diocese.

And why is that a problem?

Closing or merging parishes massively upsets people.

So what? Let them be upset. Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus. They can suck it up, or they can choose to leave the One True Church, and thereby condemn themselves to eternal hellfire.

For several reasons. Bishops are not progressive robots dealing with constant complaints is not enjoyable. All the people complaining won't be sending in any checks. And finally what makes you think progressive's believe in Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus or even hell for that matter.

Bishops have been importing priests from Africa/India/Etc. because of the shortage for a while now and those guys are not progressives. Bishops are already revealed they prefer keeping the parishes open over progressive ideological purity.

Bishops have been importing priests from Africa/India/Etc. because of the shortage for a while now and those guys are not progressives.

They're not doctrinaire conservatives, either. The very conservative priests in the USA are European-Americans, very often strongly ethnic European-Americans.

Is this way some of the Trads are into the Byzantine rite - which is one half step away from just going Greek/Russian/Ukrainian Orthodox or, at the least, one of the fully in communion Eastern Catholic churches.

This kind of goes to show it isn't about following any real strictures that will make the difference between salvation and damnation. It fits in with my view of even the "serious adherents" not taking any of it too seriously. I'm sure the faithful can spend a hundred thousand words splitting hairs etc to justify it all, but from the outside it just looks like what it is.