site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of June 17, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

In no way does this case overrule Bruen, sub silentio or otherwise.

I totally agree. But I think there's a subtle additional thing going on, similar to what happened with the left wing courts in the 1960s. There you had an opinion like Griswold whose central holding held on for a while (at least 60 years) but whose reasoning and implied test did not survive. I don't think we have a good word for this -- a case whose holding stands but whose reasoning and methodology were replaced later. It wouldn't be right to say it was overruled or distinguished.

So by analogy, I think there is a strong majority on the Court for the central holding of Bruen (or the Bruen/McDonald/Heller line, if you will) but there may be a subtle shift in the specific test that it endorsed. I don't think there's 6 votes for a balancing test or anything like that, but I think there a few pro-Bruen-the-holding votes that would rather endorse a different test than the historical test that it laid out.

If I'm playing legal realism, I think the right wing of the court made a mistake assigning Bruen to CT rather than Roberts or Alito just like Griswold should not have been to Douglas. Not because I think CT is the lesser jurist, just because his opinion doesn't command 6 votes for its method, only its conclusion.

EDIT: Allegedly Roberts and Kav wouldn't even sign on to the original Bruen until it was changed. We'll never know what was in the draft or what the changes were, but it seems to me that having either Roberts or Kav author the majority opinion (to which CT could concur in judgement-plus-I-would-go-much-further, as he does) would have been better.

[ And if I may, ping /u/gattsuru for his usually insightful thoughts. ]

Griswold made contraceptives legal. Contraceptives are still legal in all 50 states. Bruen/McDonald/Heller did nothing. In New York City, you went from not being able to carry a gun because you couldn't get a carry permit, to perhaps being able to get a carry permit (though it's not clear that they're actually issuing them) but it no longer allows you to carry a gun. Griswold may have suffered some damage; Bruen was dead on arrival and Rahimi is its quiet burial.