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PaperclipPerfector  6mo ago (text post)   25602 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of May 20, 2024

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America is a settler country; all of us except the natives were ‘immigrants once’ (even if before independence). But it is fair for a settler country to decide that permanent settlement is finished. That involves no contradiction or hypocrisy. Manifest destiny is over. The only remaining land is either worthless or protected for nature. 330 million is enough.

The only remaining land is either worthless or protected for nature. 330 million is enough.

This seems wildly arbitrary. Why can't Duluth be the size of Chicago, Wilmington the size of Manhattan, Portland (Maine) at least as large as Boston? Not to mention the density of many major American cities such as Boston, DC, St. Louis, etc. is a fraction of what it could be. Immigrants aren't coming to America to buy a plot of land and do subsistence farming anymore, they'd be coming for manufacturing and service jobs.

This seems wildly arbitrary.

And it is the right of a nation to make such arbitrary decisions.

It is, but that means pro-immigration people have just as much right to try to set the figure arbitrarily high.

If we're not trying to base it on cost benefit or some kind of moral function, then each persons arbitrary figure is as valid as the next. Which isn't very helpful from a governence perspective.

America is a settler country; all of us except the natives were ‘immigrants once’ (even if before independence).

Not except for the natives; the ancestors of the modern tribes (the Clovis people) killed and/or drove out an earlier wave of settlement.

Even ignoring the pre-Clovis peoples, native American tribes regularly warred with each other: the successful ones expanded, and the losers fled to more marginal lands, had their women integrated into the replacing tribe, or were killed.

1492 wasn't at some equilibrium state where everyone was where their ancestors had been for thousands of years. Even post-exchange, this process continued: who does Mount Rushmore belong to? The Lakota, who were dominated by the US? Or the Cheyenne, who were dominated by the Lakota? Or whatever group preceded the Cheyenne before somehow being erased from the historical record?

out an earlier wave of settlement.

who were they?

Usually just called the "pre-Clovis culture" (or "cultures"). Not much is known about them.

And if you go back far enough, every human outside Africa is an immigrant from Africa.

I am not an expert on the field but it seems that Out of Africa is becoming more controversial over the alternative that humanity evolved in different continents. There is also the idea of multiple waves of immigration out of Africa. As for the multi-regional model, in addition to evolving to different environments, part of this evolution has been also breeding with different hominid species. We simply keep finding hominids and ancient humans in regions outside of Africa that at minimum challenges the certainty of Out of Africa model.

The findings support a multiregional hypothesis, which argues that before our species left Africa for Europe, there was continuous gene flow between at least two different populations.

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-first-humans-out-of-africa-werent-quite-who-we-thought

https://www.quora.com/Was-the-out-of-Africa-theory-debunked

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=99257&page=1 https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-the-out-of-africa-theory-out/ https://www.livescience.com/ancient-human-vertebra-found-israel https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/evolution-theory-out-of-africa-dali-skull-china-homo-erectus-sapiens-latest-a8064306.html

I mean, Out of Africa in the narrow sense of "100% of our ancestry comes from a single migration from Africa that completely wiped out all other human populations without interbreeding" has been debunked, but it has been replaced with "~95% of our ancestry comes from a single migration from Africa and the rest from interbreeding with other human populations that migrated from Africa at earlier times" which still fits the simpler statement "we all came from Africa."

As far as I know, the story recostructed from fossils and genetics is like this:

  1. Genus Homo evolves in East or South Africa from earlier bipedal apes (e.g. Australopithecus) between 2.5 and 2 million years ago.
  2. First out-of-Africa migration by Homo ergaster/erectus, which uses knapped stone tools and fire but still has a noticeably smaller brain than ours, about 1.5 million years ago. Populations migrate into tropical Asia ("Peking Man", "Java Man", the "Hobbits" of Flores). All or near all the ancestry of modern humans comes from the populations that stayed in Africa.
  3. Second out-of-Africa migration by Homo heidelbergensis, which makes wooden spears and builds early shelters, 800-500,000 years ago. This wave gets much farther north, and eventually spawns the Neanderthals of Europe and the Near East, and the Denisovans of north-central Asia, but still never leaves greater Afro-Eurasia. The much more primitive ergaster descendants are completely replaced, surviving for longer only on islands.
  4. Our own species, Homo sapiens, appears somewhere in Africa between 300 and 200,000 years ago. After 100,000 years ago or so it starts developing modern tech like spear throwers and stone arrowtips as well as the earliest abstract and figurative art. The ancestors of San, Hadza, and Pygmy peoples split off from other modern human populations. Meanwhile, Neanderthals and Denisovans develop into their late form and exchange genes.
  5. Third out-of-Africa migration by Homo sapiens, with an abortive migration through Egypt into the Near East 100,000 years ago and then a crossing from Ethiopia into Yemen 70,000 years ago. The wave first follows the tropical coast of Asia, absorbing some Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA along the way, into Australia. A "ghost species" of which no fossils are known leaves behind some DNA in Subsaharan populations. After 50-40,000 years ago the Eurasian populations start moving northward, crossing further with Neanderthals and developing technology suited for cold environments, and eventually crossing into the Americas.

I suppose in the end the answer seems to be kind of an Hegelian synthesis of multiregionalism and out-of-Africa, but I'd say the latter wins on balance.

This is still ‘out of Africa’ in the 19th century sense, it’s just not in the narrow “all modern humans evolved fully in Africa then left” way that some late 20th century anthropologists suggested.

True, and they all immigrated over the land bridge at some time. The point is that though nationhood is to some extent arbitrary, that doesn’t make it less real. You can close the doors at any time just because you want to.

But if it is simply arbitrary then the people wanting to keep the doors open have just as much of an argument as those who want it closed.

Its both true and not very helpful in the broader sense.

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