This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I mean, if the steelman position for AA is that black unequal outcomes could at least to some extent be due to lack of ingroup role models (the "studying = acting white" thing) and therefore black role models should be created even if they are promoted above their station - making this generation fake it so the next can make it, so to speak - then it doesn't really matter if the Nigerians that Harvard fills its quotas with are disadvantaged, or have or want anything to do with African-Americans at all, as long as African-Americans unilaterally believe that the Nigerians are just like them and therefore are valid role models to follow. The last part at least seems plausible - X-Americans imagining that they are actually X even as real X laugh at them is a recurrent trope even for instances of X like Asian or Norwegian.
The TV show "The Wire" had two black kids in what one black parent referred to as the "pediatric neurosurgeon phase", where a young black kid, who hadn't been ground down yet, picked as a role model one of the most intelligent and successful black men in the area. Apparently this was a real thing, at least in Baltimore, and it was due to Ben Carson being the director of pediatric neurosurgery at the Johns Hopkins Children's Center (in Baltimore).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Carson
More options
Context Copy link
But ‘I went to Harvard because my daddy took advantage of corruption in Nigerian oil production’ is not actually a good example of upward mobility for American blacks(or anyone else except a small number of nigerians). Most people have normal workaday lives doing normal workaday jobs and went to not-that-prestigious schools to train for them.
Hispanics seem to have achieved substantially upward mobility by acknowledging that lots of them are going to have job titles like ‘Secretary’ and ‘accountant’ and go to schools like podunk state, bumfuck nowhere campus.
More options
Context Copy link
This is a really interesting thought experiment: if the African AA do turn out to be stellar examples of pure black competence and the reputation of blacks as an aggregate increases on means and medians, yet 4ADS-grandparented blacks remain a perenniel underclass, will AA cease their bitching? Off the top of my head my own experiences suggest a strong no, given what my african compatriots tell me about dealing with blacks, as well as seeing how the extremely few 4ADS largely treated Africans in college. US afronationalists use Wakandanized pre-white africa as a tale of white perfidy, not African solidarity. Blacks are perfectly capable of immense in-group strife now without introducing nigerian, rwandan, kenyan or botswanan ultrachads, there is no reason they will cease their bitching. The question remains whether the white DEI champions will not play with blacks anymore if they are too successful. Perhaps the natives will FINALLY be the chosen pets for whites eager to show their good hearts.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link