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@The_Nybbler is right. You are trying to tie these cases together with some sort of general principle that falls apart the second you tug at it.
Rittenhouse was running away. All his pursuers had to do was let him go.
No, before that, when he was walking around, gun pointed slightly down. That was the focus of the prosecution that he was causing people to feel threatened, which was the contention on why Rosenbaum may have felt threatened and charged Rittenhouse and thus had a self defence claim.
If that is all it takes then Rittenhouse was clearly threatening all the people he walked past. My contention is that is probably not true for either Rittenhouse or Foster.
The problem is the link you're smuggling in between "feeling threatened" and "charging." Not "shoving someone away from you" or "running away" or "hiding" but "charging". Actively running towards the person who you think is threatening you.
As far as I understand it from our very long threads back in the day the law in Wisconsin doesn't specify you have to defend yourself in the smartest way. If someone points a gun at you, running may well be the smart play, but if you choose to fight, you still can claim self defense. That is why the prosecution were trying to establish Rosenbaum had the gun pointed at him prior to him charging.
IF Rittenhouse had openly threatened Rosenbaum, charging him would have been legally permissible, though stupid.
This is a common and extremely perverse pattern in prosecutions of self-defense cases, as well as in the general discourse.
At this point in the altercation, Rosenbaum had chased a fleeing Rittenhouse a considerable distance, and then cornered him. With no further retreat available, Rittenhouse turned and pointed his gun, hoping that Rosenbaum would stop. When Rosenbaum instead charged him, he fired.
As I understand it, the prosecution's claim is that if he were legitimately in fear of his life, he would have fired immediately, rather than trying to warn Rosenbaum off. That makes his threat illegitimate and thus gives Rosenbaum a right to self-defense against him, which he exercised by lunging at Rittenhouse.
This is not how it is supposed to work. Rosenbaum chasing Rittenhouse is an illegitimate threat, and cornering him is an illegitimate threat. Rosenbaum is very clearly the aggressor, and Rittenhouse is very clearly in a position of legitimate self-defense. Pointing his gun at Rosenbaum is a threat, but it is a legitimate threat, because all three elements necessary to establish the legitimate use of self-defense very clearly exist: Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy. Giving an aggressor a last chance to back down or surrender before employing lethal force is not supposed to invalidate a self-defense claim, and the prosecution's attempt to do so is appalling.
Compare the Arbury case.
Arbury was clearly a case of self-defense because he was clearly not the aggressor: his attackers had no reason to consider him threatening when they initiated their attack, and he retreated from them until cornered. Rosenbaum was the aggressor for the exact same reason that Arbury's attackers were, because he illegitimately pursued and forced an altercation with no plausible justification. In the case of both Arbury and Rittenhouse, assuming that they did nothing to provoke their attackers, retreat should not have been necessary, and they would have been entirely within their rights to shoot their attackers on the spot. Still, to the extent that circumstances may have been ambiguous, the fact that they retreated until their attackers cornered them and forced an altercation should make their claim to self-defense immutable.
Unfortunately, that's not the way it actually works out. Motivated prosecutors and commentators routinely play the salami-slicing game with self-defense cases. It should be obvious that if you are justified in shooting an attacker outright, you should also be justified in pointing a gun at them in warning of the impending shot, provided the situation is favorable enough to leave you the option of a pause. And yet it's common to see this game played, where anything other than an immediate shot fired is used as evidence that the shooter wasn't really in danger, because they had enough time to try for a warning. Alternatively, if the shooter fires immediately, prosecutors can ask why they didn't give a warning first. What it comes down to is that some people don't believe legitimate self defense actually exists, and will twist the facts however hard they must to achieve their desired result.
Well they claimed that Rittenhouse pointed his gun at Rosenbaum twice, once to trigger Rosenbaum's charge and then once during (after/during fleeing).
If the first was true (and this is a big if of course!) then Rosenbaum charging Rittenhouse in the first place was legitimate self-defence. Then Rittenhouse fleeing may have "reset" that, but then pointing his gun at him again again counted as a threat.
In fact its possible Rosenbaum started with the one having the self-defence right (again only if Rittenhouse did point his gun at him first with no provocation) then lost that right when Rittenhouse fled, and Rittenhouse gained it when Rosenbaum kept chasing him.
And that is why although I think Rittenhouse being acquitted was correct, I think him being brought to trial was reasonable. Whether he was the one who kicked off the encounter is potentially the matter of a couple of seconds of time based upon Rosenbaum yelling about not pointing his gun at him. And being based on what a "reasonable" person would have felt such that I think a jury of peers not DAs or cops should be making that determination. Especially when you look at cases like Arbury where they were like, no chasing someone down with guns and trucks seems reasonable to us. No charges!
Having DA's and judges and the like be elected positions and so explicitly partisan seems like a big problem to me. Not sure how you can have a blind justice when they have to keep peeking to see who is voting for them. But that horse has left the stable, won the Kentucky derby three times and retired.
The prosecution didn't have any evidence of Rittenhouse pointing a gun at Rosenbaum before Rosenbaum chased him. They have no witnesses saying so; they based their claim, made in closing arguments, on a video which doesn't actually show that. They made the claim not because it was reasonable, but because they needed something to get a conviction.
Further, even if this had happened, Wisconsin law is pretty clear: "The privilege lost by provocation may be regained if the actor in good faith withdraws from the fight and gives adequate notice thereof to his or her assailant." Running away clearly satisfies that.
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Foster was in a mob of angry people surrounding Perry's car. He wasn't just off in the distance with a gun at the time he was shot.
Each of these cases really needs to be examined on its own merits.
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Even if that were so, and I can find no evidence it is the case, then by running away Rittenhouse terminated the confrontation and any justification for use of force against him.
I would agree with you. Though I think Rittenhouse did himself no favors in his testimony because he said as Rosenbaum charged him, he did point the gun at him to try and scare him off. Then ran, when he kept charging, then shot him when he was getting close. Had the jury felt he HAD initially threatened Rosenbaum, the second (admitted) threat might have been viewed to show that Rosenbaum might have believed Rittenhouse would have got more distance then turned the gun on him again. A podcast I was listening to at the time was concerned he had just given them a reason to convict. Though that turned out not to be the case of course.
Rosenbaum was i think unstable, and looking for trouble, so whether Rittenhouse did have his barrel angled somewhere near him was probably the excuse he was looking for.
This is what Rittenhouse says in direct testimony:
On cross-examination he's asked about the video by the prosecutor, Binger:
This was during the chase, not before it. Rittenhouse (by his own testimony, which was not contradicted by other testimony) pointed the gun at Rosenbloom once; Rosenbloom was not deterred so Rittenhouse shot him. Rittenhouse did not run, point the gun at Rosenbloom, run again, and then turn and shoot him. He ran, pointed the gun at Rosenbloom, and then shot him.
It is contradicted by what the video shows though. https://youtube.com/watch?v=BEbcLqBE-ts&t=14360
From 3:59:20 when they start, Rittenhouse is already running away. The bag gets thrown at 3:59:21. By 3:59:23 Rittenhouse has turned and raises his gun. The persecutor then asks at this point you have turned around and are pointing you weapon at Mr Rosenbaum. Rittenhouse says correct. Then they continue the video and we see Rittenhouse turn back around and continue to run. Then at 3:59:46 (because the pause the video they are watching for a bit) they reach the cars and Rittenhouse (presumably feeling boxed in) turns again as Rosenbaum lunges at him and fires.
The video is clear at this point. Rittenhouse points his gun at Rosenbaum twice. The second time is when he shoots him. Rittenhouse agrees with that series of events. The prosecution claims he pointed the gun at Rosenbaum THREE times, the first time being the movement he does with his arms after he puts down the fire extinguisher, the one that is extremely blurry and hard to see and happens before this part of the video. That one Rittenhouse claims is not correct. You can see that on the video starting at 3:55:14.
I'm not disputing here to say you are wrong about Rittenhouse in toto, but you are wrong about the specific series of events here. And that is why (referencing your other post) I am not sure Rittenhouse does give adequate notice of his withdrawal (assuming he did provoke the incident), he is running for about 10 seconds and in those 10 seconds he has the gun pointed at Rosenbaum twice. If Rittenhouse had actually threatened Rosenbaum, I think it is plausible the jury would not have felt this counted as a good faith retreat.
But I don't think the evidence did prove that he provoked the incident in the first place just to be clear. The reason the prosecution point to this is because at an earlier confrontation what set Rosenbaum off (where he yells "shoot me nigga") is he claims someone pointed their gun at him where Rittenhouse was there with another man.
As a point of interest, this did not happen as described.
The earlier confrontation where Rosenbaum engages in unhinged screaming was at the gas station. There's a man in a green shirt with an AR on a sling on the opposite side of the argument from Rosenbaum, but despite several visual points of similarity, that wasn't Rittenhouse. You can see this most clearly by looking below the waist--from what I recall, Rittenhouse was wearing khaki cargo shorts, and the man at the gas station was wearing long black (or at least dark) pants. There are a couple of other minor visual distinctions--I want to say the guy at the gas station was several inches taller than Rittenhouse--but the pants difference is the easiest to verify.
I don't know for sure if it was Rittenhouse, but Rittenhouse was wearing dark trousers of some sort (blue jeans maybe?) not khaki cargo shorts.
Ah, then I had the pants reversed. The distinction was the same, regardless, and the point stands that it was not Rittenhouse at the gas station.
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OK, looking at the video, that looks correct. Rittenhouse is running from Rosenbaum, turns and points his gun at Rosenbaum, turns away and runs further, is blocked, turns and fires. This isn't clear in the testimony but it would have made sense to the jury seeing the video at the same time.
Right, and that is where I am not sure if that would count as withdrawing and giving adequate notice, if it had come down to whether or not he was trying to disengage in good faith. It happens very quickly, and I assume the adequate notice clause is to avoid people baiting someone into attacking them, taking a couple of steps back in a couple of seconds and then claiming they were disengaged. You have to give the person time to understand your position has changed, and turning back to point the gun at Rosenbaum again could be seen as renewing the threat.
In the end though I agree it doesn't matter, as the prosecution was not able to show that Rittenhouse had actually threatened Rosenbaum in the first place, so the rest of the discussion is basically academic. All he had to so was satisfy the minimum of an attempt to retreat in order to not trigger the failure to retreat part of the law. And that, the video clearly shows. Arguably he could have fired the first time and that still would have been satisfied.
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