SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
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User ID: 853
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
9d ago
I won't pretend to know that all Rabbis would agree on something, but I'm pretty sure they would at least mostly agree that the interpretation of the early Rabbis was that Rome was descended from Edom. The more controversial question would be why the early Rabbis had this interpretation of the myth.
The article I linked presents an interpretation of the reason the Rabbis associated Rome with Edom that does not agree with Richard's position.
However, the reason that article gives for why the early Rabbis associated Rome with Edom is basically the Transitive Property of Hate: the Rabbis hated Edom, the Rabbis hated Rome, therefore Rome is Edom. I don't find that convincing, but even that perspective supports REM Theory that these myths and their interpretation, and even their changing interpretations esoterically depict racial conflict.
Even the suggestion that the Rabbis associated Edom with Rome based on the conflict of Jews with Rome would only suggest that even the original influence of the story would have been inspired by proto-Jewish conflict with proto-Indo-European tribes as well! Did this conflict between Rome and Judea start with Rome and Judea? No it did not, the racial contact goes back further and the Hebrew bible provides a mythological depiction and interpretation of this conflict in stories like this...
That is REM Theory. It's highly plausible and I think it's a significant theory. It generalizes to art and myth that is depicted even today. It also generalizes to the Pagan canon. It's not just Jews that used Religion for this purpose, the Indo-European Pantheon is likewise an esoteric canon of racial conflict, moralization, and hierarchy. It's a very strong theory and you haven't really challenged it meaningfully IMO.
No, I said it's literary criticism, which means it should be engaged on its merits and there is a lot of merit to their interpretation. Especially since some of the most important parts align with the interpretation of the Rabbis.
This is just Richard’s interpretation and nothing more.
It is in fact not just Richard's interpretation:
Although the texts about Jacob and Esau are ostensibly speaking about individuals, each brother represents an ethnic and/or political group that resided in the Levant in biblical times.
Ok, so this is REM theory exactly. It's not some moral lesson from God, it's a myth representing race conflict and intended to moralize a race of people. And the article acknowledges the position of the Rabbis:
This basic sketch of the relationship between the polities of Israel/Judah/Judea and Edom/Idumea during the biblical and Second Temple periods indicates that Edom was a polity that ruled from the Mount Seir area, from Wadi al-Hasa (south-east of the Dead Sea) in modern day Jordan and southward, eventually extending westward to Ashkelon on the Mediterranean Coast, and northward up to Hebron, in the Second Temple period.
And yet, Rabbinic midrash associates Esau and Edom with a completely different geographical area—the city of Rome in the Italian Peninsula—and speaks as if Romans are all Edomites.
The Talmud clearly associates the Romans with the Edomites. And it's not just a Spencer idea that Jacob and Esau represent different races in ethnic conflict.
Even the Philistines, i.e. in the David and Goliath myth are considered to have been likely descended from the Sea Peoples, in particular the tribe with Greek origins:
Possible relations to Indo-European languages, even Mycenaean Greek, support the theory that immigrant Philistines originated among "sea peoples".
Goliath is not a semitic name, it's an Indo-European name and the Philistine language is not semitic in origin. Goliath's height and strength would support the theory from a phenotypical perspective as well.
The point of that being REM theory is both radical and plausible in proposing that these myths are portraying conflict between Jews and Indo-European tribes in many of the important cases. This theory is supported by the Rabbis and the Talmud. It's also supported by some archeological and linguistic evidence tying the Philistines to a tribe of Indo-European sea-farers.
So saying it's "unfalsifiable" is wrong, insofar you could prove it wrong if you could prove that Esau did not symbolically represent an Indo-European even though the Talmud supports the interpretation of Esau as representing an Indo-European type.
Even from purely a literary perspective, Esau seems to represent an Indo-European type with red hair- he is strong and physically fit. Famously, Jacob swindles Esau's birthright by putting on goat-skin and pretending to be Esau to his blind father Isaac, such that Jacob received the blessing meant for Esau. Very interesting stuff. The story harkens to even modern myth in which the "Nerd vs Jock" trope is racialized along the same lines, and the nerd uses his brains to beat the jock and get the chick in the end.
REM theory is only unfalsifiable insofar as all critical literary analysis is unfalsifiable. I agree Mark sometimes goes too far speculating on certain nuances, but the big picture items- Hebrew stores like Tower of Babel, Jacob and Esau, David and Goliath, esoterically depicting racial conflict and elevating a Jewish type is very obviously true and insightful. In the most important cases- i.e. Jacob and Esau representing a sibling rivalry between Jew and Aryan, this has always been acknowledged by the Rabbis who relate Esau to the progenitor of Edom, and therefore Rome and Rome's successor Europe. That's just an example for how REM aligns with the interpretation of the Rabbis in a very important case, maybe the most important case.
That analysis applied to modern filmography, i.e. Steven Spielberg is also only as "unfalsifiable" as all film criticism. But Spielberg films are unequivocally an example of REM theory generalizing to modern forms of art depiction, in which the Jewish identities of the art-creators is imbued in their mythological signals, which in turn influences the behavior of mass audiences of people.
The essence of REM Theory that Yahweh is a metaphor and synonym for Jews as a race is unequivocally true. Understanding that leads to a much deeper interpretation of these biblical stories, in particular understanding the stories in which Yahweh comes into conflict with Civilization (i.e. Tower of Babel).
The conclusion that the Hebrew Bible has influenced the creation of races of people, and therefore race-creation is downstream from myth-creation, is so obviously true that we should be shocked that nobody has made this observation before in the way REM has. Have to give it credit where due.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
9d ago
There's actually a lot of parallel between Spencer's theory and the e/acc actually, in particular how Culture is a complex interaction between memes and genes. e/acc seems to stop short of (at least exoterically) recognizing this as consequential and vital for Race Formation, whereas that's Spencer's primary concern. For example, how a piece of literary fiction like the Hebrew Bible can mold races of people over thousands of years.
On the other hand, e/acc is correct about the upheaval of AI and Spencer like most of the DR is basically blind to the fact that it is going to change everything.
I would say I think the truth is in between e/acc and Spencer. Spencer + AI Realism, or e/acc + Racial Esoteric Moralization.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
9d ago
Actually, his change toward this position is a result of the failures of political organizing. He has changed his approach significantly since the rise and fall of the Alt Right.
Right now his effort includes studying the aforementioned topic, in particular the Hebrew Bible as the ultimate keystone for understanding how esoteric, cryptic spiritual movements cohere races of people together and direct their behavior. And also how this practice extends to other forms of fictional art creation like film or comic books.
He has a book coming out on the theory he's been calling "Racial Esoteric Moralization", should be interesting. I do think he's correct that there has to be some sort of post-Christian Religion that organizes the behavior and identity of these disparate Right-Wing factions.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
9d ago
Spencer would tell you not to do anything to paint a target on yourself accelerate the collapse by furthering the more insane parts of the left so you can be the reasonable alternative to the communists when the Reichstag burns.
No, Spencer's much-vaunted "liberal turn" is just a misunderstanding of the fact he isn't an accelerationist and doesn't want to see prevailing institutions collapse. He wants to take them over using crypsis and esoteric group-signaling using the same tactics he perceives have been used by Jews.
He wants the institutions to survive, so the next Christian-successor spiritual movement is ready to take the helm and reorient them in the same way they were taken over and reoriented against us.
Whites have not had any good reason to assume a collective defensive identity, defined to exclude another more numerous group.
To be clear, this has already happened in the United States, and for the vast majority of the history of the United States until very, very recently. That unification was inspired by the project of empire-building itself, not being victims in some "pogrom", no good civilization was born over identifying as Eternal Victims, and likewise Jewish identification and ethnocentrism was a cause for such progroms as much as the pogroms inspired ethnocentrism.
Collective identity is based on myth and propaganda, as it was in the United States, Rome, the British Empire, Greece, any great civilization, and certainly how it is for the Jews as well. No great civilization was ever built by a race of whiney victim-mongers.
It's another of many liberal precepts you still low-key hold, that in order to form a collective identity you must be a victim to be inspired to act that way. You don't need to be a victim, although I agree you need pressures to motivate the change. The pressures are already here. War with Russia, which has directly motivated greater European military buildup and integration. You have demographic change which is evoking racial backlash all over Europe as well as Canada and the United States. You have the threat of China, the African population bomb, you have Indian migration which judging by the Canadian subreddit has turned the average Canadian into an actual Nazi.
There are plenty of pressures, the project of European integration into a white identity has already happened in the US, and it wasn't based on identifying as some whiney eternal victim, or long-over struggle against the Indians. It's only modern-day liberalism that grants value for identification based on being a victim.
The pressures faced by Europe today are far, far greater than they were during the integration of European immigrants into the United States "white identity". At the turn of the century the country was 85%+ White, with the 15% blacks concentrated in the south and largely segregated. At the turn of the century New York city was 93% White. It's just not true that European integration on the American continent was motivated by blacks or Indians as a common enemy.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
10d ago
Jews who identify less as Jews are less likely to be endogamous. This just illustrates how idealistic things like "identity" actually do influence the breeding behavior of people, and why promotion of identity among White people is not a dead-end to promoting endogamy among White people.
In addition I don’t think you can discount that it’s likely gentile white subgroups still marry endogamously at much higher than random rates, for religious and/or regional and local demographic reasons.
I think you misunderstood my point, I do think that gentile white subgroups are naturally endogamous and that was my point. It's not a "dead-end" when it's something they seem inclined to do anyway, even with the apparatus of propaganda being optimized to try to discredit the natural tendencies that are associated with the pattern of behavior.
My point was that I don't think promoting endogamy among white people is at all a dead end; even after decades of promoting exogamy White Women still prefer White Men. It's certainly not a dead end.
The disparity between "secular" and Orthodox Jews only illustrates the importance of ideology and identity to tuning the level of endogamy. How is it a dead end when the experience of Jews shows how important identity is to the practice?
Whites are not under attack as whites in Europe. There is nothing like the DEI edifice, the mass affirmative action disfavoring whites, etc. If current demographic trends persist in Europe, that could certainly change, but as of right now there is no strong external pressure compelling Europeans to defensively adopt a shared white identity.
Obviously it's aspirational. You have the EU- so you already have an ever-growing political and financial integration of European countries, including movement across borders. You have NATO so you have a level of military integration, including major recent developments like Germany remilitarizing and France advocating for closer military ties among European countries.
We are already quite close to Pan-Aryan Imperium simply with the current powers of EU, NATO and growing political and financial integration of Europe. And then you have demographic change which is spurring populist movements in Europe and a racial consciousness. The conditions are absolutely conducive for the fostering of a pan-European racial consciousness or a European unification. But a "White racial consciousness" would be required for European Unification. Unifying Europe is a glorious aspiration, and it's not as impossible as you think.
German Unification seemed impossible for thousands of years, until it happened. American unification was a pie-in-the-sky idea, until it wasn't.
I also reject your notion that whites are not under attack, the demographic changes themselves are ipso facto an attack on White people, and they are increasingly perceiving them as such in Europe. Are White people able to stop or reverse demographic change without racial consciousness? It seems to be required.
An aspirational White identity already exists in the US, so the idea that European people can't just federally integrate into a single country, and then very shortly identify as White is disproven by history. The concept is extremely relevant to Europe.
The comparison to reparations is instructive, I think, because it reveals the cracks in the “black” racial coalition.
And yet... there's still a Congressional Black Caucus. And the NAACP. And many, many, many other organizations dedicated to black advocacy. All of these arguments also apply to Jews who often disagree among themselves vehemently.... And yet....
You are just inventing these roadblocks for why White people can't advocate for themselves that do not exist. None of the reasons you are giving for why White people can't organize are unique to the challenges faced by White identity, they apply to all other identities exactly the same and yet those other identities succeed in organizing to project political power, even if it fails in certain silly cases like reparations.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
10d ago
Reparations as a policy fails on so many fronts it's useless to point to as an example of political advocacy being made impossible or impractical by ambiguous cases of group identity. As you noted, the controversy isn't even who is "black" it is who is owed reparations and who is not. All of those groups are considered black for the purposes of political advocacy, but when assessing damages to some perceived harm that is a different entirely question. It's also just not a popular policy, a lot of Americans do not like handouts. Also, if we made an attempt to objectively settle the financial costs of harms caused by social relations between blacks and whites, then certainly the reparations would be owed to White people and not the other way around.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
10d ago
Jews choosing to live among other Jews would be an endogenous factor, sure. But it's a factor that is itself explained by the phenomenon of Group Identity and ideology directing breeding behavior. And even if you adjusted that for certain communities the level of endogamy among Jews is impossible to explain by chance. I know you bemoan it is even as low as it is (!), but it's certainly not a dead-end issue.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
10d ago
The entire idea of White Advocacy doesn't sit well with people because of the propaganda they've been exposed to their entire lives. So the smarter among them try to dress up that feeling with arguments deconstructing what it means to be White. So they believe their opposition to White Advocacy lies in ambiguity of the concept or rational argument, rather than acknowledging it actually is something they were taught to believe their entire lives- that advocating for White people is a moral wrong and advocating for Jews and non-White people is a moral good.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
10d ago
Jews are 2.4% of the American population, 58% endogamy among American Jews is proof of an enormous social pressure for endogamy among Jews.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
10d ago
TikTok is also now banning pro-Palestine content as "hate speech", so this big change in content moderation tracks with TikTok coming back.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
10d ago
I don't know what an Asian is for the purpose of advocacy and I think this has been an obstacle for Asian-Americans that would prefer less discrimination against them.
And yet we have a Congressional Asian Pacific American Caucus. And a Congressional Black Caucus. And a Congressional Hispanic Caucus. And a Congressional Native American Caucus. And of course innumerable Jewish advocacy groups. And while all of those are expressions of racial identity formulating political power, you stand on the sidelines pretending to not know what an Asian is. That's your right, but you are wrong to imply that these challenges to are unique to White identity.
And if you admit they are not unique to it, then you've failed to demonstrate why it's politically not possible if it's so politically effective in these other cases.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
11d ago
How are you not even responding to the point I am making you have directly quoted? You can say you don't know what a Black is for the purpose of advocacy, or an Asian is, or what a Jew is. But literally nobody asks that in the face of somebody advocating for those groups. Racial identity is ultimately a political tool, and as such it is functional even with a relatively small portion of ambiguous cases. The ambiguous cases do not stop the ethnic advocacy of any other group of people.
Half-Asians feeling alienated is not a good reason for not having White Advocacy.
Complaints about "race mixing" are a dead end for the white nationalist movement, but I guess that goes with the territory. You can't be a white advocate and also be ok with marrying Indians, but they're not going to convince anyone than JD + Usha is anything other than a lovely couple. This is just one of those things that people have moved on from.
Going off of memory here, but I think as a simple baseline White Women have the highest levels of endogamy compared to other races. It is not a dead-end to provide social or ideological signals to retain, promote, or strengthen that behavior. Judaism does this, although exogamy among Jews is and basically always has been one of their chief concerns, event their current level of endogamy given their small population pool relative to the population is proof of very strong social pressure for endogamy.
It certainly isn't a dead end- anywhere in the world. There needs to be a subtle or esoteric celebration of or pressure for endogamy.
The subtle and esoteric approach is better not only because it's more effective because it does incorporate more people into the fold.
Let's suppose that Trumpism is succeeded by "Vanceism" and there are going to be some major radical reforms to the Right Wing movement. I don't think Vance would oppose elements of a new Right Wing culture that esoterically promote White endogamy just because he married an Indian, in the same way I bet Jews who marry non-Jews are still more sympathetic to the Jewish effort for promoting endogamy. Does anybody think Jared Kushner is opposed to Jewish endogamy just because he married outside? Of course not.
The title "White Advocacy Is for All of Us" is an interesting one, but an Inclusive White Nationalist movement is not as contradictory as it sounds. Think of how strong the support of non-Jews is for Jewish nationalism- Zionism is for Everyone. The cultural and political levers that have accomplished that feat are available to White people as well if they learn how to use them.
Edit:
We're off to a definitional start, but I'd like to see Johnson define "white" in the American context. For example, does he include mixed-race people? Arab Americans? Are Polish Americans as white as those with German ancestry from North Dakota? Is there an argument to be made that certain non-white Americans are more "white" than certain groups of white Americans?
I always find this question to be pretty dishonest because it's never invoked for the advocacy of any other ethnic group. It's only when somebody talks about White Advocacy that everyone pretends they don't know what White is.
Just like "who is Black" or "who is Jewish" would be complicated if you drilled down to the nitty-gritty and tried to provide a comprehensive racial categorization, you just need to look at a PCA plot of human genes to quite clearly see where a "white person" belongs. White Nationalists will even crassly tap the PCA plots when others try to invoke ambiguity over who the Aryans were for example. Even the Nazis had a fairly comprehensive definition of "Aryan" that included all of the identified "six races of Europe" Nordic, Falish, Western, East-Baltic, Eastern, Dinaric as Aryan, and their own map of Europe is remarkably consistent with modern genetic clustering within Europe.
It's simply not a huge obstacle to White Advocacy, you can put the borderline cases in either category, just like the NAACP isn't crippled by being able to unambiguously identify the classification of every single person as black or not black. It's not some intractable problem.
Many White Nationalists do acknowledge racial differentiation within White people, so did the Nazis to various extents. The most common strain is Nordicism, which was held by some Nazi theorists but rejected by Hitler because he wanted to avoided causing racial conflict within Germans who are stratified among different European races. Point being, even Hitler understood "German" as a mixed-race concept, which many people don't know- although all the constituent races were considered Aryan.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
12d ago
YouTube is very strict, even banning Hitler's political speeches. You can find it here on X though if you want to see what a Nazi Roman looks like, NSFW warning for Hitler speech and Roman salute.
I covered this months ago when the Ban was gaining support.
You have ADL chief Jonathan Greenblatt in panic proclaiming "We have a major Tiktok problem" and saying that they have to work together to solve the problem... which they have now done... Then later you get lobbying by hundreds of Jewish groups to ban TikTok:
Jewish Federations of North America, representing hundreds of organized Jewish communities, said its support for the bill is rooted in concerns about antisemitism on the platform.
One of the most prominent Jewish groups in the country has thrown its support behind a fast-advancing bill that could lead to the massively popular video app TikTok being banned in the United States...
Jewish Federations of North America, representing hundreds of organized Jewish communities, said its support for the bill is rooted in concerns about antisemitism on the platform. The Jewish Federations and the Anti-Defamation League have accused TikTok of allowing antisemitism and anti-Israel sentiment to run rampant.
“The single most important issue to our Jewish communities today is the dramatic rise in antisemitism,” JFNA wrote in an official letter to Congress. “Our community understands that social media is a major driver of the drive in antisemitism and that TikTok is the worst offender by far.”
Before the ban acquired enough support, the Times posted an article called Why TikTok Needs to be Sold or Banned Before the 2024 Election which hardly mentions anything about some national security threat from CCP, and instead under the heading "Why it Matters" complains about the portion of pro-Palestinian hashtags on the platform and the spread of antisemitism:
TikTok says users decide whether to post and engage with content on #FreePalestine rather than #StandWithIsrael. But, content moderation decides what posts stay up, what gets taken down, and what accounts get banned from the platform. And it’s TikTok’s algorithm that decides what circulates and what doesn’t.
For anyone who doubts the causal link between TikTok and the rise in antisemitic incidents we’ve seen on U.S. campuses: a November 2023 study conducted by Generation Lab, which I helped to organize, showed that people who spend 30 minutes per day on TikTok are 17% more likely to agree with anti-semitic statements like "Jewish people chase money more than other people do."
And on top of that you have WSJ and Economist admitting that the momentum from the support came from the Jewish lobby.
This is completely typical of @2rafa, and frankly a typical audaciousness of many Jewish people. We have leaked recordings of Greenblatt proclaiming that something must be done about TikTok because they have a GenZ problem. Then you have Jewish journalists posting "why TikTok must be banned" which includes alarmism over anti-semitism as the chief concern. Then you get organized lobbying by hundreds of Jewish groups to ban TikTok because of Israel, not CCP. After the political support for the issue starts to change due to that pressure, you STILL get people like @2rafa who just are unable or unwilling to see an obvious political play even when the means, motive, and opportunity are all crystal clear as day and directly admitted to by the people involved. You get Greenblatt saying on a secret call that "something must be done about TikTok" then you get organized lobbying by hundreds of Jewish groups, but @2rafa enforces the norm that nothing nefarious can be attributed to Jewish people.
And there's a 20% chance I'll be banned for posting this comment, but at this point people like 2rafa are just admiring the Emperor's clothes when denying that the TikTok ban happened because of Jewish lobbying. Even when the people involved directly admit what they are doing and why they are doing it.
Edit: Also why not throw a quite from Mitt Romney into the mix:
Driving the news: In a forum Friday at the McCain Institute in Sedona, Arizona Romney asked Secretary of State Antony Blinken why Israel and the U.S. have "been so ineffective at communicating" justifications for the war in Gaza, adding, "Typically the Israelis are good at PR."
"You have a social media ecosystem environment in which context, history, facts get lost, and the emotion — the impact of images — dominates," Blinken said.
Romney replied, "Some wonder why there was such overwhelming support for us to shut down potentially TikTok or other entities of that nature. If you look at the postings on TikTok and the number of mentions of Palestinians, relative to other social media sites — it's overwhelmingly so among TikTok broadcasts."
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
14d ago
anti American content (which anti Israeli content functionally is)
Lol, no it is not. Israel is not America. Americans should be very critical of Israel.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
14d ago
Your claim is that the success of those tags is politically motivated by intentional manipulations to the algorithm, and to support that claim all you point to is the success of those tags. You're begging the question.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
15d ago
This has not been demonstrated except by pointing to the success of certain content tags. It's funny how that works, Israeli support when it is proliferated by the algorithm is organic, but when opposition to Israel proliferates and is very popular that is because it is "purposefully pumped."
Nobody has shown an iota of evidence that "TikTok purposefully pumped" opposition to Israel. If criticism of Israel on TikTok is more popular than it is on other Gen-Z platforms, you should wonder who exactly is "pumping" the algorithms in which directions.
SecureSignals
Training the Aryan LLM
15d ago
The pro-Palestine content tags to pro-Israeli content tags were like 93% to 7%. Full disclosure I'm not an Instagram user but I seriously doubt Instagram is as threatening to the Gen Z perspective of Israel compared to TikTok.
Hard to believe that’s the reason.
Once again, you are not taking people at face value. Hundreds of Jewish organizations lobby for the ban, and people directly involved admit that the Jewish lobby was decisive in the matter which had previously stalled after failing to get enough support. It is the decisive reason, they even admit this.
It's literally not novel as it aligns with the Early Rabbis who made the same relation... REM explains the reason for the existence of the myth.
Indo-European tribes invaded all of Europe, and down through India and Iran. Much about these invasions was not known for sure until very recently- in some cases, until the past couple decades, the invasions were regarded as racist myths and they never happened in the first place. The more we learn, the more plausible the suggestion is that Hebrew myth was, in significant part and in particular stories, inspired by contact with Indo-European tribes. Goliath being an example- an Indo-European name and a depiction of a physically tall man which of course is the most prominent phenotype of Indo-Europeans among everyone else in the world.
It perhaps even explains the reason the Hebrew Bible exists in the first place- propaganda to cohere a people in the face of an external threat. That part is more speculative, sure. REM would suggest that is the reason for the existence and importance of that myth body. I don't think anybody would deny the Jews have abided thanks to this body of myth.
But the Roman canon is likewise largely inspired by contact with external tribes, and there are Roman gods who esoterically depict Semitic peoples just the same. The notion that Indo-Europeans are not depicted in the Hebrew Bible becomes less likely the more we learn about how broad their migrations were across continents. Particularly given the early Rabbis themselves attributed a continuity between these mythological figures and the real-world Roman empire.
Spencer's interpretation isn't even novel as I've explained, what is novel is his combination of that interpretation with evolutionary psyschology and Race Formation. There has been scientific study of Race, there has been mythological study, but there hasn't been adequate analysis of the interplay between the two. REM fills a real gap in providing a synthesis of those studies.
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