The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
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Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.
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Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.
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Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.
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Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).
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That's all pretty bad, and I'm sorry to hear about it.
How do you plan on turning this year around, considering all those things? What kinds of strategies are you looking at? In short, what is the list of problems you will face and what are your solutions for solving these?
Perhaps the solutions themselves don't even really matter, and it's just the will to solve them that matters, and you've definitely shown a resolve to move forward in this post.
This gets at the heart of something I've been thinking about lately. As much as this forum advocates for people to have kids, I wonder why anyone would think it a good idea to do so, considering this fact. You're right. Life is pain. So why bring more in? Especially from a non-religious perspective, as I have unfortunately lost my faith entirely.
Maybe I'll ask more about this later, but I kind of dislike the idea that I would be furthering the downer feeling of these threads.
You're concentrating so much on the pain and so little on the life.
Life is pain.
Everyone is in pain, but not everyone is using it well. Exercise and getting fat both hurt. When you understand the Myth of Sisyphus, you understand the universe.
As to plans, I figure it will probably take me a few months to get everything in order for a clean break. It's a lot of work, especially in secret. I expect to be ready to file mid-summer.
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Life is pain, but if you don't figure a way to understand life (including the pain) as having value/meaning/significance you're not gonna make it. That's the way I see it. Easier said than done, though.
Should we "make it," though? What if life doesn't have "value/meaning/significance"? This gets back to Camus, that the real question is whether or not life is worth living. What if the answer really is "no, it's not worth it"?
Camus didn't think so, and neither do I.
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You're touching on a concept that was summed up nicely in Beiser's Weltschmerz -- the problem of evil. The fact is, from a materialist lens all suffering is inexcusable. All discomfort is tragedy. When something bad happens in 20XX, we consider it a suboptimal move like we're chess engines analyzing life and trying to build the perfect path. The result is ennui. A game developer once said, "Give players the means, and they will optimize the fun out of the game". The same applies to life. Your favorite art was influenced by experiences that were almost certainly terrible. There is no Lord of the Rings without the second World War, yet if any of us were asked, "Does LOTR justify the war? Does Remarque justify the war?" none of us could answer in the affirmative. We bemoan the artificiality of the current world, but when presented with opportunities to really experience adventure, us conscientious adults shirk back in fear.
Look, the secular world view doesn't have to be this way. But when you place "comfort" as your guiding star, that's what happens. You become a chess player. You are a Hamlet in a world fashioned by Quixotes. You sit, you stand, you stare at your watch. There is nothing else to do. Hamlet is apparently terrified of death, yet he does nothing the entire play but make droll, apathetic remarks to people he doesn't care about. Is such an existence really worth protecting? Even before the old king's death, do you really imagine he lived well? No. Death was never the issue for him. Hamlet is terrified of life.
The one good thing Hamlet ever did was forced on him by complete chance. The real Hamlets of the world never have that moment. Parenthood is the one test of our ability to value something beyond ourselves. It's 2024, and everyone is failing. We're all Hamlets, and the world is dying.
Tolkien said that his LOTR wasn't an allegory for anything, including either of the world wars, but that some of his personal experience in the first World War probably slipped in. I don't know if he'd agree or disagree with the statement that LOTR wouldn't have happened without WWII, but I suspect he would want to deemphasize the connection, as he did many times when he was alive.
Source: wikipedia
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Doesn't it? It looks like you laid out an argument for why a materialist view will end up in this place.
Maybe it should.
No. The materialist world is where we live, but we humans are sentient. Meaning we don't live solely in the materialist world, we interface with it through our brains, which are full of delusion and fantasy. Delusion and fantasy are how we overcome the randomness of the universe.
This is all old existentialist philosophy, with roots in stoicism. Camus said that the whole point of life was the revolt against death. To live and experience is to deny death for one more day. Through our offspring (genetic, artistic, ideological, political) we live beyond our own lives, and deny death into the future. It is our task to live our lives as seems best to us, to enjoy what we can, overcome what we cannot, and fight it out to the last.
The last act is bloody, however brave be all the rest of the play. But our own personal experiences are tiny, insignificant things, important only to us. There's six billion people breeding and fighting, all trying to get to the next stage, the next generation, into the future.
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A materialist view can end up anywhere it pleases. We place comfort at the fore and abscond from reality? Our lives become mediocre and empty. You don't need fancy logic to create values here. Just look around.
No it can't. You can't simply summon up any arbitrary set of values out of the facts of reality.
You cannot create values. Values, to be values, must be real, must come from outside us.
I disagree. Value can only come from within.
My philosophy is that value is created by sacrifice.
Things, people, institutions, are only worth what people give up to get them.
To become a better man, a greater man, you must find more to sacrifice. This is why the ancients burned their children, the ultimate evolutionary sacrifice.
There is no objective value in the Universe. The universe does not care.
Only our subjective experience imputes value to the randomness of nature.
And our subjective experience grants value to those things we give the most to get. By definition. That which is easily attainable is not valuable. Value is scarcity. Suffering is cheap. Making it produce something positive is hard.
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You should read Nietzsche.
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It's a line from the film The Princess Bride, which I have shown to my two sons, albeit when they were younger. A fun movie. (You may already know this )
Having written that, I admit that the line does resonate as a bitter truth, but not in any sort of complete version. For some, I have little doubt that life is almost completely pain, unforgiving, constant, merciless. I would like to think even for those people there are moments of calm, or peace, even happiness--or, if I really push it, beauty, though that may be too optimistic. And certainly I have had years, particularly my teens, where everything seemed rotten inside, people seemed rotten, false, groups even worse, all the world a shithole, full of liars and thieves and brutality. And you do not need to look far to find people, even adults, who will nod in agreement to all that.
I'm not going to attempt to lay out the glory here or convince you of life's endless bounty. But having kids--even when I know someday one or both of them may have to watch me, as I watched my own father, die in a weakened, much diminished state--provides, or has the possibility of providing (it provides me, let's say that) a great deal of seemingly boundless joy--bundled of course with pain, frustration, anger, etc. Like life itself.
I actually missed the The Princess Bride reference! I have watched the movie, and I like it, but it was quite a while ago now.
I realize, reading what you say, that I already knew that life is a vast smorgasbord of emotions. I didn't realize until now that I was quite focused on the negatives of life for at least a month now. I think what made me understand was my reaction to @roche's comment ("but that's all effort, which seems impossible; I just want to live without doing anything"). Which is something I've experienced before, but it really crept up on me this time. I can concede my brain just isn't in the right state of mind to make any solid decisions on the kid thing.
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