site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 18, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Who is the median Congress/BJP swing voter? Obviously there are urban elites who may lean toward or against Hindu nationalism ideologically, but I’m talking more about the average Indian voter who might conceivably switch between the parties. Where do they live? What are their politics or priorities?

There isn't an archetypical swing voter.

Indian politics has become massively polarized over religion. It's a very rare Muslim indeed who would vote for the BJP, and the ones they have are the equivalent of affirmative action hires (see, we don't plan to kill you, just make you second class citizens).

The Congress stuck around this long largely by inertia from being the guys who achieved independence, which is worth something I guess. Most of their Hindu voters jumped ship as soon as the BJP came to prominence, though I don't recall the specifics of the reversal in 2004. Presumably there are some people out there who preferred Congress policies.

In terms of said policies, they're not particularly different. Both are fiscally liberal. The BJP is ethnonationalist and Hindu supremacist, and they don't need to tone it down with their grip on power. It's a bit more socially conservative, but neither are going to ban abortion. As OP accurately states, the Congress lit their own ass on fire, they were engaging in their own share of identity politics, especially to keep the Muslim vote, they just muttered secular incantations as they did so.

We're so fucked.

So the BJP has a Vice grip on power given India’s Hindu majority, at least until such time as the congress manages to appeal to more Hindus. Are there secular Hindus, or Hindu minority groups, which could be peeled off, or does the congress have any other Avenue back to power than massive vote rigging or once in a generation public incompetence by the BJP?

I don't see the BJP being overthrown in the foreseeable future.

As OP outlined, the Congress has largely lost all credibility, especially since they're unable to jettison the Gandhis.

I don't think there's much of a moderate vote left, secular Hindus, while mildly peeved at the BJP for the violation of secularism, are otherwise mostly content because more material policies don't differ much between parties. Pretty much everyone is a fiscal liberal with socialist ideals, even the moribund communist party.

The biggest, and yet still minor threat to them is if more regional parties gain prominence and band together. Unfortunately, many of said regional parties are even more ethnonationalist than the BJP.

though I don't recall the specifics of the reversal in 2004. Presumably there are some people out there who preferred Congress policies.

There were two factors that worked in Congress's favour.

  1. BJP's campaign "India Shining" was centered around the economic progress made under its rule. Which though true, didn't appeal to the poor to whom the benefits didn't reach yet. Congress followed up with a brilliant counter attack by focusing on the downtrodden and asking them "Do you see India Shining?".
  2. The handling of the 2002 Gujarat Riots along with Modi being let off scot-free by the BJP leadership alienated the minorities and secular Hindus(who were more likely voting for BJP on the account of economy.

In retrospective if instead of trying to centrist, they fully embraced Hindu Nationalism, that may have helped BJP win power. That's the reason why the current BJP is so keen on first consolidating its Hindu Nationalist base. It's not like they need to tone it down to keep their grip on power, its because they don't tone it down that they have power in the first place.