This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Here's the context Fletcher is trying to maneuver around. It's far from the most egregious stretch of the duty of candor to the court, but it's a pretty overt example of reframing the argument away to what he wants it to be, rather than what was asked, and it's not even honest at that.
Maybe they'll try to split the baby between this case and Vullo, but like punting on Remington v Soto it just invites massive efforts. Even if coercion is officially banned, if the jawboning in this case isn't enough to be coercion, it'll be so impossible to actually prove traceability or coercion that the protection will be meaningless.
And the more morbid revelation is that it's probably pretty meaningless even if they do rule expansively. If Missouri wasn't funding this case, or if the bad actors has tried even slightly harder to keep the worst (discoverable) behavior to phone, it wouldn't be getting anywhere; Vullo only got as far as it did because whistleblowers (allegedly) provided specific details about tiny closed-door meetings. No one's going to do something similar against Gumroad. The courts aren't built for fishing expeditions, even if anyone can spot the fins with the naked eye and there's a constant Jaws theme in the background.
Like in Operation Choke Point. Obama administration made sure to have in person meetings with bank leadership and not write anything down. In order to defeat discovery. The public found out eventually, Congress forced them to testify regarding their malfeasance, etc. But no one was punished. They must be doing this a lot and usually getting away with it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link