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PaperclipPerfector  8mo ago (text post)   29292 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of March 4, 2024

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I'm definitely siding more and more with ZRslashRIFLE that I'm going to have to just interpret your statements in terms of vibes. When you say that something is "correct" or "not correct", you just mean that you like it or don't like it. Not that it's like... "correct" or "not correct" as those words would be used in any other context. When you say that you think murdering people for religious reasons is moral/immoral, you mean, "According to my meta-ethical position, the moral truth of whether murdering people for religious reasons is wrong for me is irrelevant. Instead, I'm only pointing out that I think it would be wrong by THEIR worldview."

I will try to update when reading your comments in the future. I think this new language is going to be wildly difficult to remember.

But if I were to try one last time...

It doesn't matter on what axis "better" means in this context

I really think it does. Because best as I can tell, when you say "X is better", at this point, I guess it just means, "I like X more," and there are no more implications whatsoever. This is especially problematic, because you're using "better" as the sole explanation of "correct/not correct", meaning there are two stages of hidden meaning when you say that something is correct/not correct. The first stage is that you think it is just "better", not really "correct" or "not correct" in the sense of having a truth value. The second stage is that you think "better" is just "I like it". Meaning that when you say, in the future, that something is "correct" or "not correct", I pretty much have to filter it twice to mean "I like it" or "I don't like it". It honestly is no wonder why this theoretical haranguing leads to many of the excesses of wokeism; it really does make it seem like statements that appear at first glance to have truth value are really just expressions of personal feelings/emotions.

When you say that something is "correct" or "not correct", you just mean that you like it or don't like it. Not that it's like... "correct" or "not correct" as those words would be used in any other context

It's not about like, which I have tried to explain repeatedly. My position is straightforward and the way most people in the world act as far as I can tell. It doesn't matter what I like, or don't like. I don't have a conscious choice.

As another point I am not actually a progressive and would certainly not identify as woke, and my point is that almost everyone has their morality determined this way, whether woke, conservative, fascist or communist.

Donald Trump and Joe Biden, AOC and MTG, Hitler, Churchill, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Princess Diana, Bob the Builder, the Pope, etc. etc. The way I am describing how my morality exists is as far as I can tell how about 95% of the worlds population operate.

They internalize their moral code, and judge things against that. When Bob the Christian says murder is wrong and Christianity is better than Islam, he isn't having a complex conscious philosophical debate with himself as to what he means by better or wrong. He uses the terms as they mean in every day English. If you ask him what he means by better, he may tell you that the Bible is true and that the Quran is false, but that is a rationalization, because he can't know that for sure, he has just absorbed his belief system.

I think perhaps the reason you are struggling with this, is exactly the issue you mention in your last line. Emotions and feelings ARE I think more important than truth when it comes to human interaction and morality. And that is how most people operate, and how we intuitively understand that most people operate. If you are trying to break down things into logical segments when it comes to this, well you've already missed the point. You don't have to do any gymnastics, just read the sentence as you would when talking to someone in the street.

In general, when a Philadelphian tells you the Eagles are better than the Cowboys, you don't have to try and work out what he means by better. He isn't comparing their win/loss records and Super Bowl wins. You don't need to look for any deeper logical meaning, just engage at surface level for that is the level at which he means it. That the Eagles are his hometown team and Eagles fans hate the Cowboys. That's it. If you want to call that vibes based, then sure go ahead, but you should at least recognize that if you don't operate that way, that you are the outlier. And when he comes across a Cowboys fan on the train and they start debating which is better, that there is no objective answer, that they will settle upon.

It sounds like you are making everything way too complicated for your own good.

I don't think I'm making anything too complicated. I'm simply trying to find out if there is any room for rational argumentation on your view of the moral world, where we can say that certain statements have truth value... or whether it's all vibes-based. I think this last comment is by far the most clear embrace of the vibes-based view of the world. Whereas before, it was really hidden in language that seemed to imply other things.

And sure, I understand that you think that everyone else is just purely operating in a vibes-based way, too. That was the essence of what ZRslashRIFLE said, only much more compactly. I get that idea. I just sort of wish you had said that twenty comments ago, at least no later than when I linked to him. And I really hope you won't be so loose with your language in the future.

I was clear. I would suggest you simply read what is said and not make assumptions about underlying motivations as you did. That will almost always lead you astray.

If the only question left is how clear your early statements were, perhaps we could agree to put it up to a poll? You can even choose some venue other than TheMotte, so that we can get more normie opinions rather than folks who 'make everything way too complicated for their own good'. But especially if we do run the poll at TheMotte, I would suggest we use a different context, just to put a slight barrier in front of people who might recognize the original. Something like:

Suppose Alice is talking to Bob. Alice asks Bob, "Why do you think homosexual sex is wrong?" Bob replies, "Because I do. Having homosexual sex is wrong, especially for fleeting pleasure. My moral intuitions are based upon my upbringing, my experiences, the social forces brought to bear upon me and are largely immune to rational change. I can't think myself into believing that homosexual sex is moral." Alice persists, "But you are asexual and can't really speak to anyone valuing fleeting sexual pleasure; those people think it's fine." Bob responds, "Of course they think it's moral. Everyone thinks their own views are moral. But just because I understand that they think their beliefs are moral does not mean I have to agree they are correct. What is defined as moral is based upon what values they were inculcated with."

Which of the follow do you think best describes Bob's position?

a) There is no sense in which any moral claim about homosexual sex being wrong is "correct" or "incorrect"; there is no way to claim that homosexual sex is "wrong" or "not wrong". There are only different people who have different beliefs based on their own experiences/opinions. It is wrong for Bob to engage in homosexual sex, but it is not wrong for others to engage in homosexual sex, if their experiences/opinions consider it moral.

b) Homosexual sex is wrong, and people who claim that it is not wrong are incorrect in their assertion, even though they choose to define it as moral for themselves based upon the values that they were inculcated with.

Any modifications you would propose?

I have no interest in that whatsoever. And I think the fact that you are proposing it, still shows you are struggling to even understand the basics of my position. I'd suggest the inferential distance is too great and further effort expended is going to be a waste, so I will exit the conversation here.

I clearly understand more than the basics of your position... I just had to drag it out of you. The only thing left in question is the clarity of your exposition. If you would like to continue having people misunderstand you, that is a problem of your own making. If you'd like to see if there are ways that you can be more clear, I am willing to help. I can also jump in threads in the future and try to head off any misconceptions that other Mottizans might have about your comments. Whatever it takes to help everyone understand each other better.

I obviously can't stop you jumping in where you like, but I don't think it is something I will find helpful at all. Quite the contrary.

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