This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
An internal locus of control, when the reality is that "external forces (beyond their influence), have control over the outcome of events in their lives", is literally insane. As @Belisarius points out, "There is no reason to treat the same all complaints as some might be valid, and others invalid."
"I suffer this discrimination because people like me are unwilling to exert political influence in sufficient number to stop it."
Is this internal or external locus of control?
External.
So what's the internal way of saying this?
"I suffer this discrimination because I cannot rally enough political support from people like me to stop it."?
"I suffer this discrimination because I can't muster an army capable of conquering the United States."?
"I suffer this discrimination because I won't strap a bomb to my chest a blow up some government functionaries."?
Yes, especially the first two. Having an internal locus of control means you accept that anything bad that happens to you is entirely your fault.
I'm not sure I find "fault" in any of them
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
What if I engage in a form of magical thinking where every choice I make steers the universe into a timeline where people like me are more likely to make the same choice?
Internal, but acausal decision theory is nuts.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
So is holding a hot iron as your hand sizzles and boils.
External forces there may be, but you need a certain mindset to move from under them.
More options
Context Copy link
An internal locus of control gives you better outcomes, regardless of how valid a particular complaint is. Even if it is insanity, it's a useful insanity.
I have no idea if the particular woman in the example above actually faced unfairness or not (she probably has; at some point we all have). But I do know she'd be in a better position, financially and psychologically, if she spent less time introspecting about how mean and terrible and unjust the world is to her and more time embracing her agency.
I can't speak for others. But in my experience, blaming myself for my problems makes me very depressed.
-> And that’s your fault and you need to overcome it because no one else can do that for you.
Just gotta take it one level deeper.
Of course, there’s depression and then there’s depression, and seeking necessary external help is part of taking responsibly.
(I have not fully embraced radical self-ownership, but I think there’s a lot of merit to it.)
Seeking external help is not having an internal locus of control. And I agree that my depression is my own fault, and evidence that I am a bad person.
What no.
Blaming external forces or only relying on external assistance is a lack of an internal locus of control. That can lead to learned helplessness.
Accurately perceiving one needs external support for something and seeking it is being agentic. Not seeking external help when it is needed is an unhelpful avoidance pattern and rarely leads to good outcomes.
Well, we've come around from 'seeking external help is always bad' to 'sometimes seeking external help is good and sometimes it's not'. I guess I can't argue with that.
I think you don’t understand what the posters above meant by “internal locus of control” and you are not distinguishing blaming external factors vs. seeking external assistance.
“The whole world is against me.”
Vs.
“I need help to overcome a challenge.”
No, that's just negative versus positive framing. Of course positive framing sounds better - it always does. Internal versus external would be more like 'the whole world is against me' versus 'i am to blame for everything bad in my life'. Both are negative, but one is internal loc and one is external. Or 'I need help to overcome a challenge' versus 'I need to overcome this challenge without help' or even 'other people cannot help me'.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
How positive can we be about the correlation/causation here? For reasons described elsewhere in this thread, people who succeed attribute it to their own agency, while people who fail blame circumstances. The
cross-sectionalcohort studies I see with a quick search don't impress me with their rigor in dismissing that explanation of LoC/outcome correlations. They seem to assume that if a 4th grader has internal LoC and experiences better outcomes later, then internal LoC was the cause; as opposed to that 4th grader having developed an internal LoC by age 10 due to having more friends, a likeable personality, having demonstrated demonstrated competency in the past, etc. The studies might include a line about controlling for IQ, but that's about it.I dislike psychology as a field and this always sounded like one of those "just so" stories, to my biased ears.
EDIT: Scott wrote a lot about a related topic, the growth mindset, and my views against it are probably more eloquently argued by him.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link