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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   29233 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 19, 2024

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This is just a straight up gish-gallop. None of these arguments address the central HBD thesis (individuals and groups differ in personality and intelligence, and these differences are at least partly genetic). Most of them are non-sequitors, some are just straight up lies.

To address just one randomly selected point, 'Africans have greater genetic diversity than the rest of the world'. This is entirely meaningless because genetic diversity does not guarantee phenotypic diversity on any one trait within an ethnic or racial group. For example, all SSAfrican ethnic groups have darker skin than every ethnic group in Europe. Their genetic diversity doesn't provide a range of skin tones matching the breadth that we see in humanity as a whole, so why should we assume that same genetic diversity would provide a range of IQs matching humanity as a whole.

The Ashkenazi Jews obviously have less genetic diversity than the whole of Subsaharan Africa, but that doesn't stop them having the highest IQs in the world.

I guess a question I would put to a HBD-skeptic would be:

Why do IQ scores correlate with brain size, academic achievement, income and criminality? What is the cause of these correlations if not intelligence?

The obvious anser to me would seem to be that academia is not a particularly rigorous field and that especially at the highest levels it's primary role is to sort aspiring members of the chattering class into "winning" and "loosing" buckets rather than to educate, hence why so many professors grade on a curve rather than against knowledge of the material.

As such I think claims made based on anything produced by academia in the last half-century or so it should be taken with a grain of salt. Anecdotally the sort of naive symbol manipulation that seems to be measured by IQ tests and academic achievement seems to be only tangentially related to conscientiousness, foresight, and ability to take-on/integrate new information. In fact, there seems to be a tipping point +1 or 2 SD where it actually becomes negatively correlated with outward signs of intelligence as the Higher IQ/Symbol-Manipulation Quotient gets turned towards rationalizing previously held opinions/beliefs rather than updating one's model to reflect changing circumstance or generating accurate theories of mind.

Meanwhile correlation to income and criminality is easily explained by academia's role as a means of sorting aspiring members of the chattering class into "winning" and "loosing" buckets, though I would question the "criminality" claim. Are we certain that the Bidens are less crooked than the median family "unlicensed pharmacist" living in the projects? Or are "the elite" just looking out for their own? Personally, my money would be on the latter.

I think claims made based on anything produced by academia in the last half-century or so.

You should be happy to know that the US military’s use of standardized testing goes back more than a century. For college too actually.

And you not accepting low IQ levels of criminals and trying to blame this on academia is frankly just an impressive way to think.

You’re a rare flower that hates academia but also agrees with it on race and IQ being made up and used by bad people for bad purposes.

Whatever you say, General McNamara. Last time someone brought his name up in one of these discussions you just cracked a joke and tapdanced your way out of the exchange. Do you have anything more substantive to offer this time?

McNamara was never a general. He was the CEO of Ford.

He was our longest serving SecDef.

The guy who is the boss of the generals.

Don’t evade the point just because @somedude messed up a detail that doesn’t change the substance of the point.

And that point would hat be?

If there is an argument that hes trying to make i dont see it. In the meantime McNamara's legacy as SecDef is one of why no one should ever listen to WEIRD systematizing utilitarian types who think they can fix things with this one weird trick.

Here, I'll just link to the last time someone brought up McNamara in response to your specious opinions on IQ and you shamelessly dodged. I'll walk you through it so there's no confusion.

Aardvark2:

You're a military man. So tell me why McNamara's moron corps were bad at real-life tasks they were assigned, and damaging to other units' morale even though all what they were different is just worse result on paper-and-pencil test?

You:

Do you really think rationalists are any better at "real-life tasks"? Likewise, if you know many military men you know that the name McNamara is a dirty word. There's a reason that his is one of the only red headstones in Arlington.

Generic sneer aimed at rationalists, twee anecdote that doesn't even try to answer the question. Someone notices.

zPvQINBQvfFR:

Wouldn't that suggest that people who think IQ measures something real and useful in real life might have a point? Guy comes up with idea of lowering the threshold on a mental aptitude test to fill a manpower shortage, and now his name is considered cursed for generations. This sure seems consistent with mental aptitude tests mattering in real life."

Boy it sure does, doesn't it? Someone decided that those silly standardized tests don't really reflect actual human ability, and gambled on that notion in a field where results actually matter. The ensuing trainwreck seems like a big challenge for someone who seems to believe essentially the exact same thing, so let's see how you responded.

You:

No. If anything Robert McNamara illustrates my point that it is possible for someone with a high iq to be a complete moron.

Wow, stunning rebuttal. Sure McNamara conducted a nearly perfect experiment on how much standardized intelligence tests matter in real life, sure the results were directly opposite to what your worldview predicts, but on the other hand you said "No."

Like what do you imagine that people think when they see stuff like this? Your little crack about McNamara being a high IQ moron isn't actually a point. The notion that high IQ people can't make terrible mistakes isn't a belief anyone holds that you're refuting. Meanwhile you have literally zero explanation for why this huge body of evidence shouldn't count. Just "No."

You'll do this kind of stuff, and at the same time act like it's really strange and disconcerting that HBD holds so much sway around here. I hate to break it to you, but it's largely because you and so many others of similar persuasion make bad arguments and lose constantly.

That's what it's called when you sit around pretending to not understand the questions, or play off contrary evidence with a joke that doesn't answer anything, or just abandon an exchange when it's pointed out that nothing you're saying is supported by the facts. Losing an argument. You do it constantly, and it makes an absolutely mockery of the superior air you work so hard to give off.

I still don't understand what argument you think you're making either then or now.

The thing that MacNamara is famous for in military circles and the thing you seem to be referencing is his efforts to make the US Military "More Efficient" by emphasizing technology over troops. Why bother with strict recruitment standards or waste money on training, housing, medical care, etc... if all you need is a gaggle of conscripts to draw fire so the airplanes know where to drop their bombs? Or so the thinking went.

What I don't understand, and what neither you nor the OP, @aardvark2, @SwordOfOccam, Et Al have bothered to explain is how MacNamara acting like the uncharitable strawman of a Silicon Valley Utilitarian is supposed to convince anyone that we ought to start treating minorities as second-class citizens, or has anything to do with HBD, Ashkenazi Jews, or Group differences in IQ.

The claim was only about IQ scores vs real-life tasks in military, that IQ scores do have meaning. You demonstrated low decoupling and went to discuss other McNamara actions (which I happen know to nothing about), well maybe because you can't refute central point? Maybe you meant that lowering IQ threshold for military enlistment was actually good but other McNamara actions are guilty for bad performance of "moron corps"?

So you're telling us you don't understand why a historical example of someone lowering requirements on a standardized mental aptitude test, to disastrous results, might be even the least bit relevant to your own position that standardized mental aptitude tests don't mean much? That's really the angle you're actually going with here?

Okay well, good luck with that. This has become farcical enough that I'm content with the L you've been handed here. All that's left to do now is to wait for the next HBD thread in however many weeks, let you start your usual routine, and then show everyone my one weird trick for making you forget how to parse English.

More comments

Do you remember taking the ASVAB?

Do you remember how certain jobs had a minimum GT score? Do you recall jokes about people who needed waivers?

The US military did studies in the WWII era that showed dumb people are more likely to fuck things up and be bad at their job. So the US military tries to keep the real dummies out altogether, and requires above average scores for many jobs. Becoming a pilot requires passing an extra test with a general aptitude section. Getting into the Defense Language Institute requires a good score on a language-learning aptitude test, which basically measures verbal IQ.

MacNamara decided to lower the minimum IQ to expand options for recruits/draftees. It did not go well.

So the moral of the story is that IQ is real and it matters.

You believing MacNamara made bad decisions is in line with him making a bad decision about lowering IQ requirements.

You’re smart enough that we should not have to tell you that if you enlist a bunch of low IQ people there’s going to be “disparate impact.”

Obviously there’s an HBD angle.

https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/8syjn9/gwerns_review_of_mcnamaras_folly_the_use_of_lowiq/

McNamara ignored established DoD policy based on intelligence testing and job performance.

It didn’t go well.

It’s a famous case to cite when people want to believe that IQ doesn’t correlate to job performance. People here would assume you know that context.

Note the serous irony of you criticizing WEIRD utilitarian optimizers for trying to fix things where the “one weird trick” was IGNORING THE WELL-ESTABLISHED LINK BETWEEN INTELLIGENCE AND JOB PERFORMANCE.

You understand half of why McNamara and his Whiz Kids made a mistake; just not the half that contradicts your views and explains why the example was cited.

Gosh I guess this huge historical datapoint about the consequences of disregarding standardized intelligence testing just doesn't exist as long as you continue to dodge it, or someone calls a defense secretary a general, or whatever. Darn, I'm sure your response would have been really good, too.

At no point in your prior comment did you try to make an argument/point, you were just wanted to insult/dunk on me.

Your behavior here is an apt illustration of the wider trends of historical ignorance, sloppy thinking, and "arguments as soldiers" that typify the HBD discourse on this forum.

By the way, if you're tired of me and my historical ignorance and sloppy thinking, you can always go ahead and respond to Nybbler here where you actually lost the argument like three days ago. You know people notice when that happens, right? It sort of typifies the anti-HBD discourse on this forum.

Yeah my bringing up this concrete example of the consequences of disregarding intelligence testing, in response to your meandering asspulled dismissal of IQ, is just a vapid dunk. I'm sure you could totally explain how it doesn't invalidate your worldview if only someone worded things just right. Oh well, maybe next thread.

But seriously, pretty sure last time someone brought it up you just joked that McNamara was a high IQ moron and refused to engage. We all know you've got nothing.

“It takes someone really smart to be that dumb”

All this makes a good springboard for you to express your disdain for academia and rationalists, if it were true, but it's not. IQ correlates with achievement in the general case, up to +2 SD at least (I haven't seen good studies beyond that). It also correlates below the level you'd expect academia to have an effect. And there's certainly no evidence of a tipping point at which people start to appear dumber.

IQ correlates with achievement in the general case

What part of "it's primary role is to sort aspiring members of the chattering class into 'winning' and 'loosing' buckets" did you not understand?

If only we had some kind of example to use as evidence one way or the other. Like say a famous historical case where someone came into a non-academic setting where actual results really mattered, and lowered the requirements in regards to standardized intelligence testing.

That sure would tell us something about how this all works, don't you think?

What part of "general case" did you not understand? It is true even for non-members of the chattering class.

Why is that its primary role?

Why does the US military use it so heavily?

Even if that’s how it was being used, you’re not invalidating the massive amount of evidence that IQ correlates with performance.

And well beyond the things the “chattering class” have any direct interest in.

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