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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   21700 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 14, 2024

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you and anyone else who takes this viewpoint is essentially claiming that you don't care about proof over whether the election was stolen in the first place. You just want a guarantee that your policies are enacted.

Isn't this, like -- strictly way better than relitigating 2020 in excrutiating detail over and over again? The evidence is what it is, we aren't getting more, and even outside of partisan hacks pretty much everyone has made up their mind.

"I don't care about 2020 proofs and never want to hear about it again -- but we need to bake accountability for following voting procedures and anti-fraud measures into the system so it never happens again" is at least actionable -- and something that is difficult(ish) for either side to object to. (and no, "it doesn't matter, those dumb MAGAs will protest anyways" is not a valid objection)

Why would it be better? It's a flat-out rejection of the idea that the truth should inform action. I have no problem with litigation over the facts of the 2020 election, but the frustrating part is that the election truthers don't ever give me confidence that they care about the truth for its own sake, but more because they think it's impossible Trump could have lost in the first place.

You are describing hardcore truthers though -- isn't it way easier to engage with people who say 'I can't be sure whether fraud had an impact (and therefore the results should stand) but it would be better for everyone if the system were such that it is possible to be sure that fraud can't have an impact'?

Who is objecting to that on the "2020 wasn't stolen" side? Put simply, if you open your argument with "I don't think 2020 was stolen, but here are cases where we need to tighten election security", I think you'd find earnest discussion in even the most pro-Biden/left-wing spaces.

I think you'd find earnest discussion in even the most pro-Biden/left-wing spaces.

I mean I don't really inhabit such spaces, so I'm open to updating -- but which left wing spaces are discussing tightening the eligibility/confirmation requirements for mailin ballots for example? All I'm hearing is "what do you mean, we should send them out to everyone (ed. instead of restricting them more) -- do you want to disenfranchize people or something?"

I meant that you'd find spaces open to the discussion. Yes, some might object on the old grounds of disenfranchising certain voter groups, but from what I can tell, there's a whole host of things being alleged as insecure/improper which don't have anything to do with letting people vote. You can always start there.

It's not representative of the left, but you can always try /r/Destiny. They have plenty of people who will argue seriously with you on the topic.

Why would it be better?

Because "Elections are by their nature a contested environment"

Because "the purpose of an election is not to produce a "true" or "accurate" result. It is to produce a clear result that the candidates (and their voters) can accept as legitimate, including the ones who lost."

To paraphrase you earlier comment, it sounds to me like you don't really want elections. You just want to dictate terms.

Because "Elections are by their nature a contested environment"

So is capitalism. I don't see that getting in the way of two competing rational capitalists being unable to agree to facts.

Because "the purpose of an election is not to produce a "true" or "accurate" result. It is to produce a clear result that the candidates (and their voters) can accept as legitimate, including the ones who lost."

You misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't arguing about why we have elections, I was arguing about how we understand if the procedure/process was followed conditional on our agreement to such a process. Basically, I reject the notion that the election process' outcome doesn't need to be truthful just because the real contention is the policies both sides want.

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