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The later, as part of a counter-argument by negation by demonstrating the heuristic is not a rebuttal when it can simply be reversed to press to the opposite conclusion.
I would disagree, as the structural argument is broader motte and bailey. The claim is not a specific instance of Hlynka, but a broader position.
Speaking more plainly is what has gotten mod action in the past, and I wasn't intending to go into it after letting it sit for a night, but since you asked I'll try to make it as direct as necessary and consider this exchange in the thread done. (I have tried to not let arguments carry on past a day and intend to ignore/not make further public posts on this topic today, but if you'd like to PM, I will respond later.)
Among ymeshkout's bad faith habits is that you can provide him effort posts with the citations or examples he requests, and then he will lie in later arguments- or even in the same discussion threads- and deny such examples were provided to him, and use the argument of absence to claim a further point. When pressed sometimes he will deflect on personal-subjective grounds, sometimes he will do so on grounds of gish-gallop refusal, and sometimes he will simply not acknowledge... and then in the next iteration, he will repeat the claims of absence, and challenge for the same points previously provided, and repeat the same cycle. In the process he will regularly mis-represent other people's positions, even when directly corrected, and will affect incomprehension.
My position- which he used to directly link downthread of in the old-reddit- is that this is lying. That mis-representing other people's stated and elaborated positions despite direct clarification is lying. That claiming that no explanation or sources were offered is lying. That making broad insinuations that the only conclusion he can come to about his opponents no longer engage him to the detail he insists is because they are irrational and capricious is lying. And that, having disregarded the posts and positions offered to him only to claim that none were offered to him, that he is owed no such effort or citations in the future. Because, per the position, he would simply ignore the points made anyway and later claim weren't provided, while continuing to make claims and profer links which misrepresent the person's engagements. (Which he continues to do.)
For anyone reading who is passively curious, I've asked Dean many many many times to precisely identify any false statements I've made or other instances of dishonesty and the most substantive explanation I was able to wrestle out of him in recent memory was this post from more than a year ago where he links to threads containing my purported dishonesty, but refuses to specify any further. I've looked through all the threads he linked and couldn't identify any false statements or anything else to substantiate his allegations. I understand that Dean is perennially averse to supplying details, but if ANYBODY reading this can provide ANY insight into what he's claiming, I would be extremely grateful!
Like Dean, I have also followed this topic over the years and had intense disagreement with you and felt extremely frustrated with your response patterns.
Unlike him I'm not convinced you are lying exactly, but with respect to this specific topic (and maybe also the "unequal treatment of BLM protesters vs. Jan 6 people) you behave in a way that is out of sync with the rest of your presentation and temperament, and is not unlike Darwin (as a point of comparison).
Darwin may or may not realize what is doing or how what he is doing is perceived by others.
You may not recognize what you are doing and how it is perceived by others.
But I believe a reasonable person's (here: Dean) subjective experience of your argumentation style with respect to this topic could be labeled "lying," by virtue of the way you present it.
As others elsewhere is chain have noted, it seems like you are approaching this in a specific way (?legal rhetoric style?) that you have much practice in, and value, but does nothing for the people you are disagreeing with in this context.
You I suspect are a good lawyer, and your proficiency with this style disincentivizes people from replying with specifics because you frequently circle back to that style and use it well, which is not the conversation and discussion they want to have and feels like arguing about apples when they want to be talking about trains.
I appreciate that you took the time to answer but I've read what you said multiple times and I can't identify anything actionable. What exactly is my argumentation style and how exactly would it give someone the subjective experience that I'm lying? What is the specific way I'm approaching this topic and how does it stymie people who disagree with me? It would help if you illustrated your concerns with specific examples of things I've said, and ideally offered suggestions on alternative ways I could convey myself.
My suggestion is to drop the topic.
You gain nothing from discussing it with those you agree with and my suspicion is that your approach is if anything anti-convincing to those you want to convince and may make them disinclined to listen to you elsewhere.
You fundamentally do not appear to "get it" for this topic, and as someone on the other side I was so blown away at all clear Dean was in this criticisms. Since that doesn't work for you I don't think anything will.
This may be too much of a two screens situation.
That said your post generated lots of good discussion so who the fuck knows.
I'm sorry but I don't know what to do with this response. If the problems with my argumentation style are so clear, why are they so difficult to specify? I understand that some issues can be difficult to articulate precisely but even so that shouldn't be a barrier from suggesting alternative ways I can communicate myself. A silly example but I can understand how responding to a text message with "Thanks." comes off as curt and rude, even if I can't articulate the exact reasons why. But even then I can still suggest alternatives like "Thanks!🥰" or whatever. I would love to hear a simple suggestion along the lines of "Instead of saying X, try saying Y" or whatever the issue is.
I've asked exactly this from Dean this many many many times and he's never taken me up on the offer. Given the persistent contours of this grudge, I can only assume that his real problem isn't with my argumentation style, but the fact that I haven't adopted the conclusion he prefers. I can't just assume that people are operating in good faith if the evidence suggests otherwise.
Accept that you have a blind spot and give up, or choose to believe those who disagree with you on this have a blind spot and give up.
It's been explained to you simply, at length, and with repetition over the course of years and has never landed and therefore will likely never land.
I gave up years ago and Dean seems to have updated his mental model of you to figure that you are liar*.
I repeat that your model of how we perceive your behavior on this should be as a Darwin* - discussion will get nowhere and time will be wasted with pointless demands for more engagement.
*Apologies Dean if you disagree with these characterizations.
Ok I appreciate the attempt. I'll stick with option c until I see evidence to convince me otherwise.
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I've read this sentence several times and I admit I am still not sure what you're trying to say here. My best stab at it is: people generally claim American electoral politics is (relatively) free of corruption and therefore we should assume any given election was free of corruption unless provided with extraordinary evidence of said corruption, and @ymeshkout is leaning on that as the "heuristic" that we should dismiss claims of the 2020 election being fraudulent. Is that... close? I swear I am not trying to be flippant or cute here, you're just constructing such an abstruse argument here that I literally cannot parse it.
Well, maybe you think that @ymeskhout generally claims his opponents are "hallucinating liars" (I do not actually recall him saying this, though as I noted above, you do both tend to throw accusations of dishonesty rather freely), but this was a specific instance of @HlynkaCG claiming he said something which he claims he did not.
I am not trying to trick you into saying something I will mod you for. Directly calling someone a liar usually does result in mod action, yes, but I'd rather you directly say "I think this claim is false and here's why" and even "And I think you know it's false" (which is pretty close to calling someone a liar, but at least leaves room for the possibility that you're mistaken) than write long paragraphs which read a lot like "You're a big fat liar and I'm trying to use enough words to avoid being modded for calling you a liar."
FWIW, how you put it in the subsequent paragraphs (listing all the ways that you think @ymeskhout is arguing in bad faith and being dishonest) are acceptable IMO. Not saying I agree with you, and he is certainly entitled to rebut it, but I consider saying concretely "This is what I accuse you of saying/doing in the past and I think that constitutes lying" is within bounds.
I would love it if this happened! Specifics are so much better than riddles
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