site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   26973 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 22, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I noticed this most when Farley got into an argument with Felix, and nailed him for not bothering to know the names of his valets. Until this point Felix had been pretty admirable and blameless, so I'm not sure what "point" the scene had except to mar Felix with the audience. (Felix also says some clumsy things about race in this scene, which I thought were inoffensive but suspect were meant to convey latent racism.)

Interesting. I thought the scene was meant to convey the hollowness of the character's appeals to morality. Farley doesn't really care about the valets, he uses the servant issue and the race issue cynically to try to get money out of Felix.

I agree with you that the film could have been thirty minutes shorter, and that the plot relies on significant "just-so" contrivances (I found marrying the mother particularly eye-rolling). It definitely prioritized uncomfortably long set pieces. I joked with my wife that the censored cable version of it will be better, because the "fucking the grave" scene would cut before the pants are off, the bathtub scene will imply what is happening rather than committing to minutes of it, the final scene will cut at the row of rocks. The film relies on holding uncomfortable scenes for so long that a range of emotions run through the audience, from disbelief to disgust to humor. I felt that the crossing of genres was one of its strengths, carrying a movie that would have been too boring and one note if it had been a straight vampire film.

I also disagree with the theory that Ollie conquered Saltburn, Saltburn conquered Ollie. It's the labyrinth, most clearly in the hedge maze, but over and over it is repeated that "People get lost in Saltburn." Ollie gets lost in Saltburn. He isn't happy at the end, having conquered, he is lost, he is insane, he is miserable. He has foreclosed the rest of his life, sacrificed it to that one summer he will only ever live in the memories of. What does he do with the rest of his life?

I also disagree with the theory that Ollie conquered Saltburn, Saltburn conquered Ollie.

I only meant that the movie starts with Oliver as the passive Nick Carraway observer archetype, but a third of the way through he transitions into something different.

Thinking about this some more though, I think you'd be right thematically, except for the plot of the movie. Saltburn definitely conquers Oliver spiritually in the sense you describe. But the twist at the end makes clear that Oliver more or less planned it all out, from before he even saw Saltburn. So I don't think the movie makes sense on its own terms.

It definitely prioritized uncomfortably long set pieces. I joked with my wife that the censored cable version of it will be better, because the "fucking the grave" scene would cut before the pants are off, the bathtub scene will imply what is happening rather than committing to minutes of it, the final scene will cut at the row of rocks.

There's also the scene where he eats out a bloody Venetia on her period. Although, again, I thought these scenes weren't uncomfortable, just gratuitous. I've encounter more disturbing sexual scenes on 4chan. So they didn't especially phase me. The shot I thought was most disturbing was when he removes Elspeth's intubation.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats