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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   26704 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 22, 2024

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This is exactly the problem with the whole ‘consent’ framework though, which is an inherently modern thing.

The ancients knew what rape was, women refused suitors all the time.

Widespread consent of the governed is relatively modern. Modern man, and woman, is considered capable of deciding.

I’d like you to assume the full consequences of your critique of consent. Could you develop? I think reactionaries who seemingly criticize consent, really value the consent of the father above the adult daughter’s, which kind of makes sense from a ‘women as overgrown children’ perspective, but I don’t think that’s your position.

Everyone understands that there’s such a thing as getting someone drunk. “I got my friend drunk last night”, or “our boss go us so drunk last night” are statements everyone understands.

Not in the exculpatory sense you’re using it for women. If you’re stopped for drunk driving, “my boss/friend got me drunk” does not work. The responsibility is yours. The fine is for you. You can reproach your friend for bad advice, being a bad influence, but ultimately, it’s all your fault.

I mean you’re surely not denying that social pressure, perhaps the most powerful human communal force, exists?

My parents, like I’m sure, most parents, warned me extensively against social pressure as I was growing up, to prepare me for life as adult. Are you saying women are psychologically too feeble to resist that pressure?

that results in the man’s gain of status and the woman’s loss of it

Well that seems morally entirely fine. Surely you can’t expect a human to privilege the status of another above his? Any contest, any discussion between people has a status component, and usually one’s gain is the other’s loss.

often a clear sense of being exploited or dirtied afterward.

Subjective state of mind contradicted by their actions. Worthless as an objection to the original deal.

If their consent at the time did not matter, then their withdrawal of consent later matters even less.

My parents, like I’m sure, most parents, warned me extensively against social pressure as I was growing up, to prepare me for life as adult. Are you saying women are psychologically too feeble to resist that pressure?

I'm going to bite the bullet; yes, they are, and past law codes had that in mind often rather explicitly. "Seduction of a virgin" was often literally a crime in western societies well into modernity, and in fact it's still on the books in some form or another all over the place.

Now yes, this does mean that women shouldn't have all the rights of adults. It's not a coincidence that extra legal protections for women started declining precipitously shortly after the introduction of women's suffrage.

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