site banner
PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   2794 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for January 21, 2024

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

2
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Sanctuary cities are supposed to function as a sanctuary from unjust and brutal laws. Proponents would say it is unjust to deport a family who have resided in the US for twenty years, even if they immigrated illegally. The rationale is the same as that for hiding slaves/jews/etc. It is not abnormal to try to safeguard people that are being persecuted.

Thank you for providing an answer. These are the kinds of arguments that I found while googling, and I think they’re pretty bad. They just ignore outright what the laws are actually doing - i.e. allowing anyone who manages to cross the border to stay illegally - in favour of talking about something else or a very small subset of what the policy actually is. For example, the first thing my wife asked was “so criminals and terrorists can just come in?”, and nowhere did I see any mention of it in the pro camp’s arguments. I was hoping for a robust steelman, if one exists.

I will give you the best steelman I can. Cities are not responsible for border security. If ICE is not properly enforcing border control the city of Chicago cannot change things. Sanctuary laws will protect some criminals, but it will also protect long-time illegal residents. There is a tradeoff being made, and proponents think the cost is worth it. Your wife is correct that criminals and terrorists can just come in, but this is ICE's failure, not that of Chicago. Sanctuary laws only affect deportation.

Thank you! That's a fair steelman. It does look at sanctuary laws in isolation, though. Am I incorrect in thinking that the same camp that is pro-sanctuary is also against ICE enforcement? We'd call that "holding the rope on both ends", which I can't find a good parallel idiom for in English, but hopefully you get the meaning.

(To be clear, I'm not arguing the point, I really do want to get the strongest possible version of it so I'm trying to find the holes)

Yes, they are against ICE enforcement. Yes, you're right that they mostly just don't address concern about crime, etc.

Did you see the ongoing fight about the federal government cutting wire at the southern border, and the state of Texas trying to put it back?

Thanks, I'm reading up on this now. It sounds a little bonkers from the description here, which usually I interpret as myself not getting the full context. I'll try to dig a bit deeper.

The Supreme Court letting them continue is only until they actually decide the case. A bunch of conservatives are getting mad over what isn't actually a final decision on the merits of the case. The news and people in general are frustratingly illiterate and partisan on anything related to SCOTUS.

Both sides kind of have a point—the state isn't supposed to be obstructing the federal government, and cutting razor wire to let people in is clearly not what the law was intended for and not something that the federal government is allowed to do.

The Texas governor just argued that they have the constitutional right to continue, arguing that it's an invasion.

So yes, it's bonkers, on all sides.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats