This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Except that this "Unless..." is something you've made up out of whole cloth.
Hobbes' thesis is that the individual should want to subordinate their will/desires to a higher authority because that's how you build civilization. Not that the individual has to.
As much as Hobbes is often tarred as an absolute authoritarian, he makes is quite clear in his writing that ultimate agency and responsibility lies with the individual. People don't have to obey the law, they choose to obey the law. The king is not the King because he has royal blood or some divine right, he's the king because people follow him. This sensation of agency and choice is something is central to Hobbes' thesis and the reason Leviathan was characterized in its' day as a subversive work. It also strikes me something that is distinctly missing from our current (almost entirely liberal/left-leaning liberal) political discourse.
Liberals take for granted the notion things like "legality" and "credibility" are qualities that are arbitrated by men in suits far away from where the rubber meets the proverbial road. They take for granted the idea that order is something that is only ever imposed from the top down. Thus the spectacle of a State Governor essentially telling the Biden Administration "Nah Fam, I'm gonna do my own thing." is something they have difficulty rectifying with their worldview.
Chapter XVIII of Leviathan makes it quite clear he IS an absolute authoritarian.
Certainly not; once a commonwealth has been established, it lies with the sovereign.
The King is the King because a majority of the people decided to follow him or one of his predecessors (Chapter XIX), once.
Hobbes would call that treason. But he would disapprove of the United States anyway, because of the system of subordinate sovereigns.
Yes he makes the argument that, if an authority is "legitimate" one should obey it without question, but given that he spends the preceding 7 and subsequent 13 chapters talking about what it means for an authority to be legitimate or not. Accordingly, I don't think it proves what you think it proves. Instead, I would argue that an "absolute authoritarian" who's authority comes with 20+ pages of exceptions and caveats is substantially less than "absolute."
Yes, that is what I said.
And this is what I mean when I say that there is a "Leviathan Shaped Hole" in the discourse. Like I said the sensation of agency/choice is central to Hobbes' thesis. If anything, the American revolution was particularly Hobbesian in nature in that it was ultimately a rectification of the existing de'facto authority with the de'Jure. King George may have been the Sovereign on paper, but the shipping guilds and colonial councils were the Sovereign on the ground.
As the old line goes, the mark of victory is that none dare call it treason, and that's how we ended up with the Declaration of Independence
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link