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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   26360 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 8, 2024

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But it is accurate to suggest people get charged before the charges are proved beyond reasonable doubt, because that's a thing that happens in court, rather than during the investigation. Therefore putting it forward as one of the criteria in this discussion is unreasonable.

Huh? I asked "What evidence exists to prove all elements beyond a reasonable doubt?" I'm not asking for a court determination that has already been made, I'm asking for evidence that can be brought into court to prove the charge. If you don't have it, how can you say that the charge should have been laid?

Maybe, but we don't actually have a way to determine whether this portrayal of how the system works is accurate.

Of course we do. The system is staffed by people. Normal people who openly talk and complain about their jobs. Lots and lots of them. Some of them post on this forum. It's not a mystery.

When you actually talk to people who work in the criminal justice system, they will often have many complaints about how the whole thing operates, but those complaints bear little resemblance to the conspiracy theories. I work in politics, and have many complaints about how the political system operates, but they are completely different complaints to those of my father-in-law who thinks that all the world's governments are run by the Pope who is the Antichrist.

My issue with the discourse around Epps, is that the idea that he's a fed is being treated as unreasonable, when there's more than enough circumstantial evidence to raise eyebrows.

Yeah this is fair. I don't think it's an unreasonable thing to suspect - law enforcement obviously uses undercover cops and other similar techniques on a normal basis, and it wouldn't be weird at all if some of the groups involved in Jan 6 had feds embedded in them. I don't even think this is a bad thing.

I just don't think that the light prosecution of Epps increases the likelihood that he was one such agent. People react to his case because the things he says on video sure sound like they ought to be crimes, and they don't do the homework to figure out that actually they probably aren't.

Huh? I asked "What evidence exists to prove all elements beyond a reasonable doubt?" I'm not asking for a court determination that has already been made

But you are asking me for something that can only be determined in court.

If you don't have it, how can you say that the charge should have been laid?

By comparing the facts of the case to cases where charges have been brought.

Of course we do. The system is staffed by people. Normal people who openly talk and complain about their jobs. Lots and lots of them. Some of them post on this forum. It's not a mystery.

And if normal people can be trusted to do something, it's to rationalize the pathologies they're participating in.

When you actually talk to people who work in the criminal justice system, they will often have many complaints about how the whole thing operates, but those complaints bear little resemblance to the conspiracy theories. I work in politics, and have many complaints about how the political system operates, but they are completely different complaints to those of my father-in-law who thinks that all the world's governments are run by the Pope who is the Antichrist.

Tell your father-in-law that he's based, and knows what's up.

More seriously, this doesn't prove what you think it proves. The majority of people would never notice, if they were following the literal Antichrist's orders, or at least that's what I was always told was the lesson of Nazi Germany. But we don't even need to go full-Godwin here. I too am familiar with normal people who did a lot of grunt work during the Syrian refugee crisis, and they too would insist nothing untoward was happening, even as they're telling you how they were basically re-enacting that scene from Lauren Southern's documentary, where some NGO worker was coaching the refugees on what to say to not get deported. When you can tell yourself you're doing something good like helping refugees, or chasing down insurrectionists, it's trivial to turn a blind eye to all the obviously wrong things you have to do to achieve that goal.

I just don't think that the light prosecution of Epps increases the likelihood that he was one such agent.

I agree it's not a smoking gun, but it's pretty suspicious, and the establishment media protecting him is even more so.

You landed on the angle that resonates most with me. By AshLael's layout, this could very well all be above board and I have to grudgingly accept it. But then I think it's also completely consistent with the kind of 'play' a three-letter agency would make to maximize impact while still maintaining plausible innocence. Make sure 'your guy' intentionally does some scripted rabble-rousing, but let him know there's a threshold he can't cross without burning himself, then wash him through the system with a symbolic punishment with no real consequences.

Yes, I am being conspiratorial. But I'm not wedded to the belief. I'm more curious as to why Ray was treated so sympathetically by media and politicians and spared the 'traitorous insurrectionist' narrative. Why was Ray - singled out from everybody else - allowed to be some dumb guy with a good conscience who's being picked on by Fox News? One of the things I watch for in real life is how long it takes a popular online/mainstream take to funnel down to a friend's mouth, and even some of them readily took this position (despite insisting they don't really follow politics much any more). Im supposed to believe this complete lack of moral judgment is because he didn't touch a gate?

There are things about this story that have all the hallmarks of intentional manufacturing (I care little if it's directed from the Illuminati or mundane uncoordinated political tribalism) - if not the facts themselves, then certainly how to the public is supposed to be viewing them. As long as that exists, I will assume Ray was fed-affiliated.

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