site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 8, 2024

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Is there a right to "win at sports" that you are defending? This doesn't really seem like the same level of importance as gay marriage. I was also never one to say that about gay marriage. My stance has been and still is that the state should never have been involved in approving marriages. The original purpose of that was to prevent mixed race couples.

You seem certain that trans people aren't winning a bunch in the female leagues, so can't they also just lose in the male leagues?

I'm just looking at history on these types of fights and saying 'lets hedge towards giving the people the rights they want so long as we don't see any clear harm in doing so'.

I'd say the harm is a lesser or possibly equivalent version of just eliminating women's leagues altogether. Depends on entry requirements. The most permissive entry requirements would be the same as just eliminating the women's leagues. Super super strict entry requirements would make the harm non-existent, but probably only at the point where they are banning most trans athletes anyways.

My post was full of proposed mechanisms that are directional, towards trans athletes being worse than cis male athletes.

Yet you've also spent a bunch of time denying the existence of directional effects that point to trans athletes being better than female athletes. You accept directional evidence when it suits you and deny it when it suits you. This is isolated demands for rigor.

I could also make up directional effects for why trans athletes might be better than cis gendered male athletes. The experience of being trans might give them more grit, having a trans community could give them a better support structure than most individual male athletes, and the increased awareness of their bodies might make them better at body awareness sports. The magnitude of these directional effects is about as well studied as the directional effects you mentioned. And I could again follow your line of arguments and say that without the win/loss ratio study we can't possibly know how things actually shake out.