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PaperclipPerfector  10mo ago (text post)   25099 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 25, 2023

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Fourth and finally, the biggest mistake of US statecraft was stopping at Berlin in 1945, instead of pushing to Moscow

It genuinely astounds me that anyone thinks they could have actually done this. Sure, the Soviet Union had taken huge hits, but they still had a reservoir of experienced soldiers and a running wartime economy to supply them to at least adequately; certainly enough to put up a mighty struggle against any other invading armies. Apart from the British, maybe, the only other force the Americans could have mustered to fight besides them would have been the Germans, but at that point utilizing them would have been enough to turn everyone else, French and Italians included, to the Soviet side.

Even in America the country would have, in 1945, gone through several years of propaganda about how the Russian is Also Your Friend and Fights For Freedom, it's hard to see the country gearing up for several more years of war against them all of the sudden for no clear reason in sight at that point.

The US had the atom bomb which the Soviets didn’t - together with no Lend Lease this would have made the USA unbeatable.

I don't think that the US atomic bomb production was at that point at the phase where they could produce more than an occasional bomb, and in any case - as the movie Oppenheimer showed - a huge amount of the folks related to the weapons development in this arena were in it specifically to beat the Nazis and would have pulled brakes on the programme hard if the US had suddenly palled with the Nazis to attack the Soviets.

The United States basically had plans and the means to produce one A bomb a month basically indefinitely in 1945.

Indeed they had zero bombs for a few months after V-E day -- I'm sure they could have managed to stall or otherwise create chaos for a while, but it would have been an awfully big risk to take on that basis considering that hardly anyone even knew about the thing, and those who did couldn't really be sure that it would work.

It may make sense militarily but how in the hell do you sell it politically?

How do you not look like a duplicitous bastard of a nation for the next century? Let alone justify the horror if prolonging the most destructive war of all time for a good few years?

A more realistic alternative would have been halting Lend-Lease after Stalin didn't provide any support for the Warsaw Uprising. That would have limited the USSR's expansion.

Marching to Moscow wouldn't make sense. The war against Japan was still ongoing.

Plus, there were already riots by soldiers in 1945 over not being demobilized. World War II was sold on beating the Japanese and the Nazi's. Not continuing on to Moscow.

Even in America the country would have, in 1945, gone through several years of propaganda about how the Russian is Also Your Friend and Fights For Freedom

You can push the failure of statecraft further backward in time if you like. The premise is the same: if we fought on the side of the Soviets, we were fighting on the wrong side. After all, the Soviets and Nazis were allied for two years, from 1939-41.

Also, I was of the understanding that USSR was reliant on lend-lease for the materiel necessary to wage war, and that while they had the manpower, they didn't have the weaponry.

Apart from the British, maybe, the only other force the Americans could have mustered to fight besides them would have been the Germans, but at that point utilizing them would have been enough to turn everyone else, French and Italians included, to the Soviet side.

I can't imagine the Italians fighting on the side of the USSR to keep American out of Moscow. I'll have to take your word for it.

P.S. Patton seemed to think it could be done, and he knew more than you or I. Others disagreed, but if someone who was actually in charge of troops thought it could be done, and should be done, then I'm willing to entertain the possibility.

You can push the failure of statecraft further backward in time if you like. The premise is the same: if we fought on the side of the Soviets, we were fighting on the wrong side. After all, the Soviets and Nazis were allied for two years, from 1939-41.

The US didn't get to choose which side they fought on, or even whether to fight - Hitler's ally bombed Pearl Harbour and Hitler honoured the alliance by declaring war. Assuming that Barbarossa happens in any alternative timeline, the only way the US avoids ending up on the same side as the Soviet Union is to cut a deal with Japan such that Pearl Harbour never happens.

The world where the US gives the Japanese explicit permission to carve up the European colonial empires in Asia as long as they stay away from the Philipines and supports the Nazis over the Soviets in post-Barbarossa Europe is obviously worse for humanity (either the Nazis win, or WW2 is even bloodier because it takes the Allies longer to win). I don't think either result looks good for the US either. In both cases, the US ends up as the weakest of three blocs (with the other two allied), doesn't have access to the Middle East oilfields, and is almost certainly on the wrong end of a nuclear monopoly. (The Allied bomb effort in our timeline was dependent on refugee talent who went to Los Alamos specifically to oppose Nazi Germany - if the US is neutral, then the Allied bomb project ends up in some suitably out-of-the-way part of the British Empire, and the German bomb project has more time and resources).

Shortly before Patton's untimely death in a traffic accident, he was going on about how the Jews he was assigned to 'liberate' were loathsome and subhuman, how he much preferred Nazis. That's why he got dismissed from commanding his army.

Either we trust Patton and drop the retrospective moral justification for the war in the garbage, or distrust him.

Either we trust Patton and drop the retrospective moral justification for the war in the garbage, or distrust him.

Patton had been fighting the Nazis for years and respected them as opponents.

Seeing Jews coming out of the camps in terrible shape triggered his disgust reflex.

An ideal person would have reflected on that. But he was an Army General, not some humanitarian leader.

Either we trust Patton and drop the retrospective moral justification for the war

I, for one, trust George Smith Patton when it comes to war in Europe.

Also, I was of the understanding that USSR was reliant on lend-lease for the materiel necessary to wage war, and that while they had the manpower, they didn't have the weaponry.

At least according to this, Lend-Lease made up 10-12 % of Soviet production during WW2. More than I remembered, but could have been replaceable, and the Soviets would have been fighting a defensive war instead of an offensive one again.

I can't imagine the Italians fighting on the side of the USSR to keep American out of Moscow. I'll have to take your word for it.

Italy was on the verge of Communist takeover after WW2, with the main things making that not happen being herculean American effort under the scenes to support DC and other non-Communist parties, as well as Stalin's reticence. If US had actually attacked the Soviets, especially together with the Nazis, I don't think they would have had the moral credibility to do the former, and the latter certainly wouldn't have been a factor. Same might apply to France in lesser decree. Once firmly Communist they would have participated on the Soviet side one way or the other.

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