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zataomm  11mo ago (text post)   5752 thread views

Colorado Supreme Court Thread

Link to the decision

I don't know to what extent there are established precedents for when a topic is worthy of a mega-thread, but this decision seems like a big deal to me with a lot to discuss, so I'm putting this thread here as a place for discussion. If nobody agrees then I guess they just won't comment.

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Congress has not acted at all, and the issue is whether the bar is self-executing

Congress has acted though, 18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States. (June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)

That's why I found this passage shocking; I take your point that if Congress hasn't set up any mechanism to enforce the amendment then it's reasonable to believe that it should be enforcable somehow, but it's much harder for me to swallow the argument that even when Congress does address the matter, the States can set up their own enforcement bodies. In paragraph 105 of the CO decision, the Court writes:

We are similarly unpersuaded by Intervenors’ assertions that Congress created the only currently available mechanism for determining whether a person is disqualified pursuant to Section Three with the 1994 passage of 18 U.S.C. § 2383.

Or are you saying "Congress hasn't acted" because the code doesn't say that § 2383 is "pursuant to the 14th Amendment" or some such language?

The problem with “self-executing” especially in this case is that it doesn’t require a conviction which brings up a huge problem in that if you can create a self-executing punishment (which would happen if the other parts are self-executing— jail time and fines are legal penalties) then you’ve done away with the presumption of innocence and the right to a hearing and to cross examine witnesses. A “finding of fact” that allows for criminal punishments is essentially a trail in absentia i can declare that you did in fact commit insurrection or give aid and comfort to one without the inconvenience of a trial and the right to examine and dispute the evidence, to cross examine witnesses, or present a defense.

It seems a bit of a stretch to suggest that a document that in several instances explicitly requires the state to presume innocence, limits the ability to search (hence warrants), forbids the state from requiring a defendant to incriminate himself, requires juries of the defendant’s peers, and otherwise makes the state jump through hoops before declaring someone guilty of a crime would suddenly be okay with striking someone from a ballot or fining them or jailing them based on a finding of fact.

Or are you saying

Again, I am not opining on the merits, but am merely referring to the claims made by the parties and judges. The quote is re an alternative argument raised by Trump (note its placement at the end of the section on self-execution, and after your original quote). And note this from one of the dissents:

My colleagues in the majority concede that there is currently no legislation enacted by Congress to enforce Section Three.

So, that is the claim of the majority. The majority does not argue, as you inferred they did, that states can establish a definitiin of insurrection different than that established by Congress.

Thanks for the quote. I'm really puzzled by both the dissent and majority's opinion on this matter. As the dissent writes after the line you quoted:

If any federal legislation arguably enables the enforcement of Section Three, it’s section 2383.

I don't understand why neither side considers section 2383 to "enable the enforcement of Section Three". That seems to be exactly what it does, yes "arguably", but the "argument" would mainly just point out that that section uses the exact same language found in the 14th amendment!

The dissent also says,

this is the only federal legislation in existence at this time to potentially enforce Section Three

My guess is that, because the statute provides for a criminal penalty and disqualification for public office, it might be a separate penalty as opposed to an implementation of the 14th A. The statute does seem broader than the 14th Amend, FWIW, since the 14th applies only to those who have taken an oath to support the Constitution, whereas the statute applies to all who engage in insurrection. Someone who violates the statute but who did not violate the 14th because he never took an oath can still be President, since the Constitution establishes the exclusive qualifications for the offices of President, Senator, Congressperson, etc (see cases annulling term limits on Congress).

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