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Sure, but even if you're right, there are certain points past which I don't recognize the result as "having shown up". For example I sympathize with DaseIndustries Transhumanists more than I do with Bay Area Rat Transhumanists, but both are so distant from me that I can't see myself having a direct stake in either one of them winning.
But none off that matters, as the question was about morality, and this is not a moral argument.
Yeah my personal theory about how he showed up here was that some California Bluehair called him a racist, and he said "Very well... I see that I do not belong here... I shall go live... with the racsists!"
You can have him, but I don't want his views associated with me. They're like someone deliberately set out to miss the point.
That is the weirdness of such arguments. What will showing up prove? That you were morally right, that you have retroactively won in a hypothetical future none of us will know? It strikes me as the inverse of : 'in the past, we all lived in a communist pacifist matriarchical cooperative', but even less subject to contrary evidence. Ownership of the past and future need not concern us. The future is a foreign country.
Neither does the Bluehair. Are you going to deny him his identity and his far right card, unless he goes trad? If you object to his characterization of himself on definitional grounds, that's one thing, but if you're just gatekeeping and trying to up the social pressure as a political act, I must object under freedom of association.
As far as I'm concerned, he can always tag along on the road to Bremen, where we shall sing for our bread.
Doesn't that imply that the Nazis were only wrong because they lost? If we're full-nihilist fair enough, but then it's obvious we're using completely different and irreconcilable moral frameworks, and arguing over any specific case isn't going to be productive.
Well, then let's just get him to identify as a moderate classical liberal (without changing anything about his actual views), or whatever it is you consider yourself to be, and then like I said you can have him, and everyone will be happy.
Huh? Freedom of association means I get to gatekeep him out.
Yes, in showing up ideology, goebbels was only wrong because he wiped out his family. I do not think highly of that kind of argument, I prefer moral ones. I'm arguing against the other times you used it, like a week ago.
The thing is, by some definition, like the Bluehair's, I'm far right too. I'd probably describe myself to her that way if she pressed. Labels like that are just helpful indications for others, they're not some badge of honour The Party can remove to maintain ideological purity.
I'd very much appreciate it if more people could identify as some flavour of centrist, who can pick and choose correct arguments on a case-by-case basis. But the bluehair doesn't recognize that, it's either with her or against her - and I interpret your gatekeeping (and Hlynka's more extreme no-one-is-a-right-winger-but-me antics) as a similar stance.
I see it this way: certain ideologies (the woke, religious sects, and now apparently the far right), don't want their adherents to associate with the non-pure, and that goes against freedom of association. The gates in an open society should be permanently open, and let anyone in or out. All arguments are free under a creative commons license and not to be bundled together in conflicting exclusive ideologies. So if he wants to be a far right utilitarian, let him.
And are you a follower of the "showing up ideology"? Because I'm not particularly interested in hearing your interpretation of other people's ideologies.
Right, but you're not telling me I should follow your ideas, because we both disagree with the Bluehair, which is what I feel CA's constant reminders that he's one of us fellow
kidsright wingers, is aimed to do.I'm either misunderstanding you or vehemently disagreeing. No, I don't think Black Hebrew Israelites should be free to identify as Jews. If any particular person wants to leave a group, that's his right, if any other group doesn't want to have him, that's their right.
Feel free to disagree, but then you're not for freedom of association.
You’re the one who claims it has any validity, so I expect you to defend it when I point out a case where you act contrary to it (fertilization).
“You believe X is true. A straightforward understanding of X implies Y. Y results in Z. You deny Z is true. Therefore, X is false.” Is a valid argument. You can’t just dismiss my reasoning on the grounds that I don’t believe the terms. Whole classes of arguments, like ad absurdum, would disappear.
I didn’t see him do that here. It was just you reminding him that he’s not a real right-winger because of his utilitarian-like reasoning. It looks like ideologically directed social pressure: ‘you can’t sit with us unless you believe this and that’. I don’t recognize that as a legitimate way of changing someone’s mind.
And really, what is he, if he's not a right-winger? Clearly he's not a progressive (unless he's lying, that's a different problem). So, if he doesn't want to become a groupless and stateless reject and eat alone every meal, he has to acquiesce to your demands of ideological conformity.
Oh. Well if you have any questions about what I believe, feel free to ask them, but if there's something that interests me less than you telling me what other people believe, it's you telling me what I believe.
I can dismiss it on the grounds that I don't believe in X, you just think I do because you heard something that sounded like this to you, or that even though Y is a straightforward implication of X for you, it isn't for me or others. More broadly - feel free to point out the flaws in my reasoning, but if you're going to try to tell me what I believe, you're going to be ignored.
Doesn't matter, I was bringing up past conversations when responding to him.
He can sit we me all he wants, but he does not get to portray himself as representative of my worldview, or adjacent to it.
It's far from clear to me, even if he's being 100% honest.
Weird how you let progressives create right-wingers by dissociating from people, and everyone else has to accept the label they put on their opponents.
You’re still avoiding the question of why showing up even matters, if you can just arbitrarily pick and choose when it applies, and when morality, or anything else, easily overrules it. If you do not deign to educate me, I’ll just ignore your “not showing up” objections from now on.
Yeah, like I said, I'm not going to answer your interpretations of beliefs I supposedly hold, that I haven't even brought into the conversation.
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