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PaperclipPerfector  11mo ago (text post)   27106 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023

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Heads I win, tails you lose. If the common people vote wrong, it's their fault. If they vote right, but get the opposite, still their fault.

If they support the right policies, it’s not their fault when they don’t get implemented. If they support the wrong policies, it’s not their fault because they’re brainwashed.

This tendency towards external loci of control is not healthy. Half of the stuff (like boomers) doesn’t even make a lick of sense. I’m saying, before you start blaming every group under the sun for why things don’t go your way, check with the 60-40% of the population that agrees with the ‘externally imposed’ policy.

If they support the right policies, it’s not their fault when they don’t get implemented. If they support the wrong policies, it’s not their fault because they’re brainwashed.

I thought what we were discussing here was mass immigration being implemented despite it's unpopularity. I got into several threads at once, so I may have lost track of the conversation, but I don't see anything about brainwashing here.

Half of the stuff (like boomers) doesn’t even make a lick of sense.

If something doesn't make sense to you, ask for clarification, rather than throwing random sneers that it impossible to tell what your objection even is.

I’m saying, before you start blaming every group under the sun for why things don’t go your way, check with the 60-40% of the population that agrees with the ‘externally imposed’ policy.

How is "third world immigration was never popular anywhere in the west, there was no referendum on this" not doing exactly that?

rather than throwing random sneers that it impossible to tell what your objection even is.

What is there to understand? Blaming boomers or brussels for immigration is simply wrong. If an anti-immigration voter then supports an anti-boomer or anti-brussels law, which fails to stop immigration, that’s not a failure of democracy.

How is "third world immigration was never popular anywhere in the west, there was no referendum on this" not doing exactly that?

Let's say the population is 60-40 opposed to immigration, but the governent still effectively allows immigration. That’s not proof that the people’s will doesn’t matter. It doesn’t mean you have to look elsewhere for the ultimate cause. Perhaps the 60 do not care as much. Perhaps the government thinks the people’s will on this issue is not reconcilable with the people’s will on other issues (like maintaining the retirement systems). In any case, I guarantee that shrinking that 40 will be more effective in stopping immigration than blaming all the external boogeymen.

I’m not saying elites, the pro-israel lobby, russia and its interference, etc, do not have any power. But the paranoid right denies all agency to the people. And so you get this situation where they fail to see a moral difference between israel (nay, an israeli, nay, a jew) asking for something, and stealing. Because america, as they see it, is a retarded giant whose lunchbox you can steal by just asking for it. In reality he’s not brainless and he can say no.

What is there to understand?

What he said. So you can actually respond to it, for example.

Blaming boomers or brussels for immigration is simply wrong.

Yeah, I don't think he blamed the boomers. I also see nothing wrong with blaming Brussels.

If an anti-immigration voter then supports an anti-boomer or anti-brussels law, which fails to stop immigration, that’s not a failure of democracy.

Do you think that there's anything that could be classified as a failure of democracy?

Let's say the population is 60-40 opposed to immigration, but the governent still effectively allows immigration. That’s not proof that the people’s will doesn’t matter. It doesn’t mean you have to look elsewhere for the ultimate cause. Perhaps the 60 do not care as much.

With these sort of excuses a literal dictator can pretend to be carrying out the will of the people.

Perhaps the government thinks the people’s will on this issue is not reconcilable with the people’s will on other issues (like maintaining the retirement systems).

That's a very bad example. If two preferences come into conflict you can just start a public debate explaining the problem and asking people to chose the solution they want.

In any case, I guarantee that shrinking that 40 will be more effective in stopping immigration than blaming all the external boogeymen.

And how can you guarantee that? Any examples come to mind when the elites really wanted to do something, but were foiled by common sentiment, particularly long term? Also, they have much better means to shrink the opposing side.

But the paranoid right denies all agency to the people.

No we don't. This is another case where asking for clarification of things you don't understand would be better.

And so you get this situation where they fail to see a moral difference between israel (nay, an israeli, nay, a jew) asking for something, and stealing. Because america, as they see it, is a retarded giant whose lunchbox you can steal by just asking for it. In reality he’s not brainless and he can say no.

Well, I do agree the hatred against Israel is misplaced, and hatred against Jews is even worse. If your elites do not represent your interests, the blame lies squarely on them.

Do you think that there's anything that could be classified as a failure of democracy?

I always say the main purpose of democracy is to prevent a civil war, so that unpleasantness counts. You appear to have a more idealistic vision of democracy than me, which you then negate. To me, it’s about guaranteeing regular people a voice, not a supreme, telepathic link to the levers of power.

With these sort of excuses a literal dictator can pretend to be carrying out the will of the people.

They almost always do. And they often are.

I think we’re getting to the heart of the matter with this comparison, because I believe people are also partly responsible for a dictator’s actions (putin, chavez, hitler, hamas, etc). Do you disagree?

Any examples come to mind when the elites really wanted to do something, but were foiled by common sentiment, particularly long term?

They were trying to abolish the death penalty for at least seven decades in france before they did it.

Opposing the death penalty, [President Armand Fallières] systematically pardoned those sentenced to death during the first days of his mandate. It was also during his mandate, in 1908, that a bill aimed at the abolition of capital punishment was submitted to the Chamber of Deputies by the Keeper of the Seals Aristide Briand, who notably confronted the deputy nationalist Maurice Barrès, resolute supporter of the death penalty. The project was ultimately not voted on, with deputies and public opinion being all the more hostile to it as the very recent Soleilland affair (1907) was still remembered. It was only 73 years later that the death penalty was abolished in France, by the will of another President of the Republic (François Mitterrand) and another Minister of Justice (Robert Badinter).

I think they’re still chomping in the ol US of A.

If your elites do not represent your interests, the blame lies squarely on them.

Still seems to me like you assign zero agency to regular people, as long as the government fails to implement 100% of the best version of what they think on every topic.

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