site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   27196 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 20, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

If he linked the original post his game would be a little too obvious even for the quokkas on the mod team.

Without this guy, even though (as many, not just you, have noted) he’s a troll, we’d be back to the usual conversations about trans bathrooms, abortion, guns and childhood transition making up 70% of regular threads, and those were in many ways played out discussion topics by the end of the last Bush administration.

It's not like we can't talk about other things, we just don't as much.

This is why I'd like a BLR back, maybe just with those topics outright banned, as more seeds for discussion on a variety of topics.

There's also the perennial Motte favorite of a person coming in to whine and consensus build about how things are going to shit and we have to do <blah blah blah> or else the evil political opponents will destroy us all, worded in such a way as to just barely slip past the site's moderation standards.

I know that there is a tendency for some topics, in some weeks, to dominate, but I fail to understand this critique.

I'm frequently impressed with the depth, breadth and back and forth of some of the discussion I've seen here. Even on familiar topics, some of the ideas are frame breaking enough they lead me to question some unexamined prior.

Even the HBD and white nationalism stuff has merit in uncovering widely held views and pointing to the critique of liberalism moment we are in.

Also, as a majority single issue focus poster, it's called culture war and I resent people telling me to move on just because they have reached their peace. I'm sure you have issues that stir you and there's a gate-keepy flavour with pointing out topics that are 'overdone' that triggers me back to days of college, where no-one at parties wanted to talk philosophy with me...

I recognise some stuff gets repeated and may feel overdone, but it's easy to minimise main threads. I think even in frequently posted issues, there can be new levels of analysis/synthesis that evolve over time.

The variety of posts both down thread and last week would suggest otherwise.

Hard nope.

SecureSignals is getting modded for one issue posting, this guy is doing the exact same thing, except dishonestly. Ban for life.

Concretely, I thought the Aporia article he posted was a perfectly reasonable thing to post.

The mods take an extreme light touch with SS, he’s still here years later and still largely single-issue posting, just not exclusively in top-level threads. And the main reason he gets modded is that he makes the same arguments in every Holocaust denial thread but when actually interrogated always disappears when Stefferi or whoever effortposts a quality rebuttal to his arguments and allusions.

This guy, by contrast, is more ‘just asking questions’ rather than making an argument. Obviously it’s still trolling in a particular direction, there’s no doubt about it, but it’s a less objectionable grift than posting propaganda and running away when a decent counterargument presents itself.

I'm not criticizing the mods, I think SS should bite the bullet and post about literally anything else, every once in a while, and if there's no other subject in the world that makes him tick as a human, he should probably take that as a cue to think about his life long and hard.

I'm criticizing you for encouraging JD, when all he's doing is being a dishonest version of SS.

I'm not criticizing the mods,

I will.

Situations like this are what ultimately lead to my falling out with Zorba and Trace and they don't seem to have learned anything in the interim. We kept getting into arguments in modmail where they'd be like; You can't just assume that "u/ArgleBargle456 is ban evading because he showed up the morning after /u/ArgleBargle123 got banned." and "Yes /u/soandso is very obviously pushing an agenda and consistently bringing the quality of the conversation down but that's not a reason to take action against them" and I finally ran out of patience. If blatant ban evasion and clearly violating the foundations of the sub are not reasons to mod someone, what is even the point of moderating anyone?

Like you say, this guy's just a less honest version of SS. and as @fuckduck9000 points out, keeping him around is effectively the worst of both worlds.

There's something to be said for "beyond reasonable doubt" when it comes to banning, but posters should err on the side of not feeding trolls, even if that results in some false positives.

Maybe, but at the risk of rehashing that whole argument again, I do not think that "beyond reasonable doubt" is a remotely workable standard in a pseudonymous environment where someone can spin up a new account in less time than it takes the moderator to ban their old one.

I suppose part of me is curious whether all our replies to JD/motteposter/other alts are going to end up on SneerClub one day, or whether it’s some other kind of troll.

The comment in question presents white nationalism are benign and free association as harmless, but that strikes me as wrong.

Why do you think it's wrong? I mean, I agree that it is wrong, but this place isn't for saying what is, it's for exploring why what is, is. Surely you have some starting conception of why white nationalism is not benign and free association can be harmful, so start there and follow the chain of logic.

I seem to recall that you've asked questions similar to this of me directly a couple times, I gave what I thought were good replies, and you never responded. In fact, I don't recall you ever responding to people giving good rebuttals of WN ideas you've brought up, of which it seems to me there have been many. If you genuinely cannot generate good arguments against WN ideas yourself and are posting those arguments here in hopes of finding such arguments, it seems to me that at some point, you would either comment to express thanks for having such arguments provided, or conversely point out why the arguments provided aren't good enough. You don't though, do you? You only ever seem to Just Ask Questions.

Don't be low effort? I guess you have tried but figured that white nationalism is basically correct. You're here to either explore the chance your wrong with people who are willing to put in more effort, or much more likely you're doing 4D chess because you find your own ideas on the matter compelling. You've basically been outed as bad faith, and that is the issue at hand. The other option is you're here to steelman the best arguments against your ideas so you can work away in private to dismantle them rhetorically.

I think you may have some strange meta personality such that you are the person who has the visceral hatred.

Why don't you just speak in the first person about your own ideas in a direct way?

If you’re genuinely not trolling (likelihood: 5%) then maybe reach out to the mods privately and see if you can verify your identity semi-anonymously (prove that your IP is real and non-VPN? Something like that)

Yeah, if you want diverse content, just allow low-effort tops. If you want honesty, let SS and co be. Tolerating this guy is the worst of all worlds. Litters the sub with low-quality fake dogpiling arguments about a subject the mods apparently don’t want to see.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats