The Wednesday Wellness threads are meant to encourage users to ask for and provide advice and motivation to improve their lives. It isn't intended as a 'containment thread' and any content which could go here could instead be posted in its own thread. You could post:
-
Requests for advice and / or encouragement. On basically any topic and for any scale of problem.
-
Updates to let us know how you are doing. This provides valuable feedback on past advice / encouragement and will hopefully make people feel a little more motivated to follow through. If you want to be reminded to post your update, see the post titled 'update reminders', below.
-
Advice. This can be in response to a request for advice or just something that you think could be generally useful for many people here.
-
Encouragement. Probably best directed at specific users, but if you feel like just encouraging people in general I don't think anyone is going to object. I don't think I really need to say this, but just to be clear; encouragement should have a generally positive tone and not shame people (if people feel that shame might be an effective tool for motivating people, please discuss this so we can form a group consensus on how to use it rather than just trying it).
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I recently stumbled on this LessWrong post about self-love that piqued my interest: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/BfTW9jmDzujYkhjAb/you-are-probably-underestimating-how-good-self-love-can-be
... I, like a lot of my peers, especially software folks, experience a lot of internal self-criticism and self-loathing. I would absolutely love to change this, but finding the right playbook for fundamentally changing your relationship with yourself is challenging, to put it lightly. I'm trying to figure out what an effective "30-days of self-love" would look like to go and change the direction of the ship.
Practices like metta or any of the other brahmaviharas are no panacea at all, as a lot of the western meditative footguns fundamentally block successful performance, particularly:
... that's not even mentioning the problems with certain courses (like Finder's course) and orgs (Dhamma Sukha, the TWIM camp, loves making false, and frankly delusional claims about their method).
I've tried therapy a couple times, but the expense is killer, and I have a lot of trouble with the whole "you need to do this for years or months to see any small tangible benefit" paradigm. In fact, a lot of the therapists I've seen seem like they're much more interested in keeping therapy going versus helping me and potentially losing my business. I've tried ACT/CBT/REBTs therapies, IFS, somatic therapy, and in our therapy-as-a-universal positive society tend to try again every several years, but I always get the ick from the experience every single time and eventually fizzle out. Last time I tried IFS, I did it for 9 months but couldn't say that any behavior was any different.
I honestly wonder whether, as an adult, it's possible for me to go and change something as fundamental as my relationship with myself, but if it is, I'd really love to go and try. I think others are much better at doing something without seeing the tangible benefits, I just can't go and do something every day without seeing some kind of improvement over weeks and months.
My initial thought was to try IFS techniques to get a deeper understanding of your inner critics/exiles so that you can help repurpose them. However, I see you have already tried IFS.
Since you are not satisfied with the results of your sober techniques, I would gently point you toward considering psilocybin in a low to medium dose. It may open your mind to new ways of approaching your relationship to yourself. It can make new ways of thinking about yourself feel salient and "real" causing you to feel like you can actually change them when sober. After a single experience you may gain a deeper appreciation and insight into the sober practices that you have already tried. Specifically, you may feel more in touch with different "parts" of yourself and this will lead to increased success with IFS.
People sometimes say psilocybin (or other psychedelics) feel like years of therapy after a single dose.
In the lesswrong link they talk about MDMA and that seems like it could work too.
More options
Context Copy link
What’s the relation between “software folks” and self-loathing here?
More options
Context Copy link
I suppose it's interesting because as someone who holds a lot of feelings of self-hatred, I'm totally aware that I could drop them like a hot potato and engage in self-love instead. It's just so unconvincing. Fundamentally I don't believe and I don't think I could make myself believe that I deserve love. And frankly, I'm not any more low-functioning under these conditions than I was a few years ago when I didn't feel this way.
It feels a little bit to me like Christianity. Of course it would be very nice to just reach out with my mind and reciprocate the boundless, deep, unconditional love that God has for me. I just don't believe it, I don't believe Jesus rose from the dead, or that gay sex is wrong.
More broadly, I don't think people need to have a 'relationship with themselves'. The whole thing sounds hideous. Is it not better to not have a relationship with yourself at all? I feel happiest when I'm at work, focusing on some task external to myself. I think of such times as when I'm being myself, rather than talking or fighting myself. And though maybe some level of introspection is a necessary part of existence, it's in service to actually inhabiting yourself.
More options
Context Copy link
This is a lot of words and all quite complicated. In my experience it is a "simple" habit modification.
You have an established habit of negative self talk that has become second nature.
The first step is to just become more aware of this reflex.
Once you are aware of it, you can practice reframing or rephrasing, and talk to yourself like you would a friend.
And then you can stop yourself as you have the negative response
And then you just jump to the healthy response
Each step is building a habit, and like any habit requires a bit of effort and mindfulness to start with, but gets easier with time. It shouldn't take years, probably closer to a week or two for each stage. I probably isn't Nick Cammarata MDMA-fuelled self love, but is a good way of getting you out of these automatic negative thought patterns.
It's not really obvious to me that the latter is healthier than the former. Responding to all things with serene indifference seems like a pretty shitty and even self-centred way to proceed through life. I guess it's just part and parcel of the way that people tend to pathologize negative thoughts and negativity as being 'unhealthy'.
Plus, I personally find as a negative self-talker that acknowledging my negative self-talk reflexes just makes it worse. Now instead of thinking about whatever bad event set me off, I'm thinking about how stupid and irrational and unhealthy and undisciplined I am for engaging in negative self-talk.
(Not OP) It's not serene indifference as much as understanding the nature of your limits, and the role externalities play in your existence.
Self-Love and Self-Hatred are two sides of the same coin. They are self-obsession. Thinking your farts are roses or you're utterly worthless are both unhealthy paradigms. You can't have an accurate view of yourself, much less the world, if you can't balance it out a bit.
Most people need more self-hatred IME, but it's not a vast majority or anything.
Oh, it's very selfish, no question. And it's probably not very healthy, but as I said elsewhere, I'm not religious - that applies to modern health-worship as well as Christianity.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Indifference isn't always a "healthy" response, but it can be. Every situation is different and there are many good and bad ways to think about each one.
I was going to mention this but didn't want to make things too complicated. You are allowed to have the negative self talk, but then you have to practice the rephrasing even if you don't feel it. Would you talk to your friend like that? How would you think about things if it was your friend and not you? And actually think it "out loud".
On negativity - I argue negativity is unhealthy. I know what you mean, it's no good thinking everything is great when it's not, but you can still maintain good vibes while acknowledging and fixing mistakes.
I don't really get the question. I'm not my own friend. For a start, I can't leave or abandon myself. I have to be nice to my friends, and besides, I picked them so I like them. I didn't pick myself.
At the same time, this means I can't really trust my friends to be honest about me. When they say I look good, that's just them being good friends. I actually know I look small, fat and weak. Whereas if a stranger online tells me that I'm weak, lazy and pathetic, that's probably because it's true.
Okay, you didn't pick yourself, but you're going to spend the rest of your life with yourself, so you might as well treat yourself right and be your own cheerleader. It is not being "honest" to be hyper-critical and beat yourself up all the time. It is not useful. It is a self-reinforcing bad habit. It is a cognitive distortion. It is a trapped prior. But there are other ways of being that are just as honest but far more energizing.
Is being my own uncritical cheerleader actually the right thing to do? I mean, ultimately if I wanted unconditional love, I have friends and family who care about me. And yet, despite their love, I am kind of a fuckup and a loser and not very happy with my life of no money, no bf, and hating my body. Clearly, love isn't all you need - at some point I needed discipline or criticism. And though that's my fault for rejecting or shying away from those things earlier in my life, but if people around me won't provide that or can't be trusted to do so or if I'm too brittle to accept criticism from others, I have to provide that for myself.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I agree with most of what you wrote above this, though I'm ignorant of if it is actually true if you look small, fat, or weak. But I'm not sure how you land on the conclusion that a stranger online telling you these things is an indication that these things are true. Strangers online are not known for their honesty, nor are they known for their great judgment. I think it's quite possible that they're telling you this because it's true, but I'm skeptical that it's probable. If a stranger online told you you were strong, conscientious, and great, would you also presume that it's probably because it's true?
No. They're just being nice. But there's no reason for someone to make a false criticism of me. But also I find the criticism of others fits better with my own negative self talk.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Reframing negative thoughts means detaching from the part of your self that generates these negatives thoughts. You won't end up "responding to all things with serene indifference" because what you are detaching from is your inner thoughts and not the outside world.
Nor is it about pathologizing negative thoughts. In fact, the primary thing that changes is that you start dealing with them head on:
You'll still experience emotions and thoughts about things in the world. But now you will be in a better position to respond to them in the way that you want.
Watch this video: Why it's Actually Valuable to be Detached
I don't think this really rings true. Yes, relentless negative thoughts are unpleasant to deal with. But they don't cause me to avoid activities. I still regularly go the gym or go to work even if it feels terrible or if it's a tremendous effort.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
As weak and counterintuitive as this sounds, I've found physical changes are the key for me. In particular, lots of exercise, exposure to sunlight, getting enough sleep. And when I say exercise I mean in particular weight training but also sweat-inducing cardio. I don't think about it too much but exercise tends to take me out of my own head, which for me is very much what is needed and is counter to the therapy idea where you reflect, dwell upon, or otherwise parse yourself to death. I believe in self-awareness, but I know too many self-absorbed people who constantly go on about wellness but are themselves nothing like I want to be.
Seconded, vigorous exercise is a far more effective antidepressant for me than any of the actual antidepressants I've been prescribed.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Feeling Good by David Burns can help with this and related things. The trick is to become more aware of your own self-criticism and identify when it is valid vs inaccurate.
More options
Context Copy link
For me, self love / recovery from bad self talk began with identifying whose voice those words reminded me of, and in what circumstances. The fourth step of the Twelve Steps is a valid therapeutic method for this; there are many variations on the worksheets, and the iOS/Android fourth step app (99¢ for maintenance/development) is a great interactive tool.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link