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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30069 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023

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The Fourth Amendment forbids only "unreasonable" searches and seizures, yet Fourth Amendment jurisprudence is filled with bright-line rules and has been for decades.

That there may be bright-line rules contained within a reasonableness rule does not mean that the reasonableness rule is, itself, a bright-line rule. Clearly, one needs to figure out by looking at the actual opinions to determine whether there actually is a bright-line rule for some set of things underneath the reasonableness rule. We can't figure it out from a terrible summary article. You now seem to admit that "there might not be".... which was my position from the beginning. Perhaps you could help us consider the possibilities by commenting on this hypothetical, so we can see how much expectation of privacy you think is reasonable.

That there may be bright-line rules contained within a reasonableness rule does not mean that the reasonableness rule is, itself, a bright-line rule

No one said otherwise. Nevertheless, courts often draw bright-line rules when defining reasonableness. For example, ordering the passenger out of a vehicle during a traffic stop is per se reasonable.

Sure. What is the evidence that they actually did so here? That vague article doesn't nearly do the job, and you know it. You're staking your ground on the mere possibility that they could have set down a bright-line rule. We agree that there is such a possibility, so continuing to chant that adds nothing to conversation and merely makes you look obstinate rather than engaging as per the rules of this forum.

You could add to your case by commenting on this hypothetical, ya know, if you want to try contributing to the discussion and everyone's further edification.

You are the one claiming that the BBC's concern over liability is bogus, despite the opinions of UK attorneys that imply that that concern is very much legitimate. Hence, you have the burden of proof.

I have given ample evidence that there are cases where there is no reasonable expectation of privacy. You have utterly refused to even engage with them. If you literally ignore anything that is said, then of course your interlocutor won't overcome your burden of proof. But, of course, everyone else can notice that you're not even trying. This is the worst form of bad faith arguing, and it violates this sub's rules.

You seem to be a bit fuzzy on what a bright-line rule is. The whole point of a bright-line rule is that details of specific cases are irrelevant. Hence, if the UK court established a bright-line rule, then it doesn't matter whether or not everyone knows the name of the player who was arrested; the media cannot report his name, regardless. The same is true of your hypotheticals.

Hence, if

This is the thing that you have utterly failed to establish and that I have consistently challenged. Even try.

EDIT: You say:

The same is true of your hypotheticals.

So, you're actually going to comment? Will you unambiguously state, for the record, that your belief is that in this situation, UK law clearly and unambiguously says that Mr. So-and-So has a reasonable expectation of privacy in his arrest? Will you unambiguously state, for the record, that your belief is that all media outlets will refrain from posting his name in the article about the hullabaloo on their website, their twitter accounts, etc.? Will you unambiguously state, for the record, that your belief is that all their lawyers will tell them that they have to refrain from doing so because of legal risk?

So, you're actually going to comment? Will you unambiguously state, for the record, that your belief is that in this situation, UK law clearly and unambiguously says that Mr. So-and-So has a reasonable expectation of privacy in his arrest?

I have already said that. Again, that is what it means to say that I believe that the courts have established a bright-line rule.

your belief is that all their lawyers will tell them that they have to refrain from doing so because of legal risk?

  1. You are misunderstanding the role of their lawyers. If my understanding of the law is correct, the lawyers will tell them that, if they name him, they will be in violation of the law. But they will not tell them that they "have to" refrain from doing so, because that is ultimately a decision that the publishers must make, and which rests on considerations other than mere liability. An obvious one is the extent of damages that the plaintiff might win, which might be very low. Or they might be very high. I have no idea. Other factors are of course the standard elements that go into decisions about what to publish.
  2. But, I do expect the lawyers to say what I have repeatedly said: There is bright-line rule, so if you publish the name of an arrestee before charges are filed, and the person sues, you will lose.

This is the thing that you have utterly failed to establish and that I have consistently challenged. Even try

Well, I have presented evidence in the form of legal opinions from two UK lawyers. You, on the other hand, have simply presented your personal opinion.

I have presented evidence in the form of legal opinions from two UK lawyers

No, you haven't, really. The article didn't say that. We parsed the language earlier. Try again.

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