site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

According to one survey, two-thirds of people in the US believe that the law of supply and demand does not apply to housing.

Or perhaps they're correctly noticing that the places with the most supply are often the places with the highest prices.

That isn't how the survey was worded.

Imagine that {State} passes a law to ensure that suburban homes may be developed on farmland and open space near cities. The new law overrides local zoning restrictions. It causes a building boom. In five years, the number of homes and apartments in your metropolitan region is 10 % larger than it otherwise would have been. For example, a region that would have had 1,000,000 residential units in five years without any change to development restrictions will instead have 1,100,000 units. This is three times the rate of housing growth in the nation as a whole.

How would this affect the market value of typical {Home Type} in {City}? It would...

  • substantially increase their market value
  • somewhat increase their market value
  • have no effect on their market value
  • somewhat decrease their market value
  • substantially decrease their market value

Literally 60 to 70 percent of respondents chose "substantially increase", "somewhat increase", or "have no effect on".

I don't see how that addresses what I said.

People recognize that large, booming cities have high housing prices despite huge amounts of stock, so of course they'll respond to such a poll with that in mind. The median respondent isn't analyzing this question in the way economists or even just people on a rationalist forum would. They don't assume "ceteris paribus" the way it's become second nature for economists and generally educated people. They don't recognize what the question is "getting at".

They read that poll question and call upon their general knowledge of what they know happens to housing prices when a city is booming. And they're right insofar as housing prices in booming cities increase more than housing prices in non-booming cities. That the poll has difficulty herding them into the thought experiment the poll wishes to herd them into does not mean they're imbeciles who don't think supply and demand is a thing, for housing or otherwise.

That the poll has difficulty herding them into the thought experiment the poll wishes to herd them into does not mean they're imbeciles who don't think supply and demand is a thing, for housing or otherwise.

More questions from the same survey:

Imagine that a new high-school program for training students to be plumbers causes a large increase in the number of plumbers in a city. Would wages for other residential plumbers in the city increase, decrease, or stay the same?

A free trade agreement is a pact between two or more nations to reduce barriers to imports and exports among them. Do free trade agreements make the price of products sold in the U.S. higher, lower or not make a difference?

For each of these questions, there was a 50/50 split between "lower" (correct) and "higher or no difference" (incorrect). I have no qualms with calling these respondents "imbeciles who don't think supply and demand is a thing".

I concede!