This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
No, you're dealing with completely average kids, but it just so happens that in many ways kids are exceptionally stupid, hence age gating (which also includes things like driving, drinking, ability to sign contracts, etc., etc., etc.)
Looking up existing examples of MTFs or FTMs is easy, but the thought has to occur to you to search for it, and it does not occur even to an average adult (and this is a common behavior on all issues, not just this one). All the kids see is TikToks glamorizing the whole thing, parents don't know what the fuck is even going on, and even if they figure it out, and they'll show it to the kids, they'll be promptly ignored because "you just don't get it mooom", and medical professionals are either ideologically captured, or see the whole situation through green-colored glasses with $$$ signs on them, so they'll also undermine the parents who manage to figure things out.
But if it's a social contagion and/or discomfort with puberty and/or with atypical sexuality, they'll get over it, and will not want to transition as adults. Before ideological capture, something like 80% dysphoric kids were desisters.
Also, if you end up changing your mind, your prior ability to pass fucks you up too, to say nothing of the body parts you hacked off. As for health issues, you're the doctor, but the idea that being exposed to puberty blockers and hormone treatment earlier rather later, results in better health outcomes, strikes me as a bit counter-intuitive.
Where would you say you part ways with them?
They have an ontology where "gender" exists as an ethereal entity entirely divorced from one's physical form, for one. Or that you can simply claim to be the opposite gender without passing as it, and then have everyone treat you as such. While I endorse the hypothetical of people switching sexes, that's only when they succeed, points for effort are minimal.
You will note that in most of those examples, parents are allowed to either grant them liberty to do so, or sign them on their behalf. I believe that the argument upstream was all about kids, parents and trusted authorities all colluding to make teen transitions feasible.
Meh. That seems orthogonal to transhumanism, not in contradiction to it.
Letting your kids drink or drive will get you in trouble in most countries, so society is perfectly happy to limit that liberty
But I'm callous enough to let progressive parents fuck up their kids, if that's what they want to do. My issue is with normie parents who sign off on it under duress. "Would you rather have a happy daughter, or a dead son", this is shit "gender experts" actually tell parents. Even doctors bow out of responsibility for the decision. So I'm saying the scenario as outlined is not representative of what's going on.
If a ban is too much for you, I gave another suggestion to simply add liability.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link