This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I can date someone with different politics as long as their metapolitics are, like mine, geared for cooperation rather than instant defection/conflict. This usually implies they're not too invested in politics in the abstract.
I don't think I would want to date someone who was too politically involved in trying to achieve political changes at levels that are obviously beyond their control.
That is, self-described 'activists' are right out. If they want to show up to a protest and hold a sign I guess that's okay, but devoting substantial time and effort trying to shift political outcomes is where I would draw the line.
So I can most likely tolerate somebody that I differ with politically, as long as we're generally in agreement that National/Federal Politics are a farce and any attempts by us as individuals to influence them are pointless, AND we generally align on the issues that are local enough to effect things we can control.
She could hate Donald Trump and I could think he's alright, as long as both of us know that Donald Trump has very little actual impact on our lives.
In practice, the type of person who even has strong feelings about Donald Trump is also likely to be the type who is overly obsessed with national politics. So having a position on Trump that you're willing to fight over is, itself, grounds for me to back out of any further entanglement. It can be fun to debate about the guy in the abstract, and come to differing opinions, but the second you start taking it too seriously is the second you're too invested in a question that has no importance for your life.
I don't think this is even me taking an 'eNLighTenED CenTriSM' position. I'm literally just looking for someone who isn't so invested in political fights that have no bearing on the relationship we share or our immediate living situation that they don't have energy to spare for the relationship and for the fights that do matter.
Then there's the nuanced positions. Somebody can be vehemently pro-choice and I could be in a relationship with them despite me leaning pro-life, but it would have to be understood that I do want to be consulted on matters pertaining to childbirth within the relationship, as long as she understands that I'd never hold a gun to her head and force her to carry a fetus to term.
Again, I assume people capable of exercising such nuance exist, but they sure ain't as obvious.
Obviously you know yourself better than I can, but this specific position strikes me as dangerous. An unexpected pregnancy can be stressful and values-clarifying in ways that are difficult to anticipate. I would not be at all shocked by one or the other of the two people in the hypothetical relationship you describe radically changing position when confronted with the real, immediate situation (she decides "you get no say, period," or you decide "abortion is a dealbreaker, do it and I'm out," for instance). I'm not even suggesting bad faith! Just that a truly accidental bait and switch can happen, and abortion is the perfect storm for that type of accident.
More options
Context Copy link
I feel a lot of empathy for this point of view and I almost agree, but there are at the same time some implications in your comment that are truly horrifying.
The notion that any degree of actual attempt at political involvement is an actively bad thing is one that is acutely poisonous to democratic society at large, in addition to being morally repulsive to me. What happened to civic duty and responsibility? Meaningfully participating in communities more broadly? I’m not sure you can simply separate “oh, this is a local issue” and “oh, this is a national issue I am powerless about”. People drastically undersell the network effects of sharing their own opinion, let alone actually volunteering for a candidate. While it’s true a lot of people find themselves in an endless cycle of outrage and fear, egged on by the national media and political cycles, it’s also seems to be true that the antidote is the moderating influence of interpersonal discussion. It’s not a catalyst for more outrage, it’s a set of social brakes.
Perhaps this is an inaccurate read of your comment but my first impression was definitely one preaching political inactivity as a virtue, which it is not.
Your interpretation is a bit of an exaggeration of what I'm saying, but not completely off base.
Civic duty to whom? Which group? And how much of that duty can I expect will be reciprocated? At the national level... not much. Most people can't 'meaningfully participate' in a national 'community' in the U.S. because its just too big for them to have any noticeable, appreciable effect, and it's dominated by insiders!
There are certainly those who are good at making people feel like they had such an effect, though! But this reads to me as exploitation.
I'm not suggesting political apathy is the best path (okay, being honest, for many, many people it might be!). Only that much political activity is essentially throwing one's time, effort, and money into a machine that will only occasionally spit out a return on the investment, and usually it will be less than you put in, so one should be judicious about how much they insert.
And in the most heavily contested elections its all a red Queen's race/Molochian spiral, the more money and effort one candidate throws in, the more the other has to throw in attempting to counter, yet the outcome needle will barely move to the extent their efforts cancel out. That's a lot of resources being burned for effectively no gain!
Speaking of cancelling out, one thing I keep coming back to is how overhyped voting is, for any national-level position, because you can spend hours of time becoming informed about the issues and candidates and determining the 'optimal' vote to cast for your preferred outcome... only to be cancelled out by some yahoo that either doesn't investigate the issues or just listened to a pundit and chose that way. It makes more sense to find someone else who would vote opposite you and both agree to stay home for all the impact you have on the outcome.
Note that I make the exception for local elections and issues where the chances of you casting a deciding vote are substantially increased.
EVEN THEN, the marginal returns on getting heavily involved and actively contributing substantial funds and time to campaigns are TINY for any person who doesn't happen to have outsized influence in a given community. i.e. a celebrity or other 'elite' member that others look to for guidance.
And by definition, it is impossible for everyone to have an outsized influence.
In short, it's a power law distribution. 80+% of the outcome is attributable to <20% of the people's efforts. My attempts to sway opinions will be far less impactful than a political pundit with 100k+ listeners will be. Does this mean I don't attempt to sway opinions? Nah. In fact, I just put in targetted efforts towards the few people I'm most likely to be able to sway (my own family, generally speaking) and don't bother much beyond that.
If you consider that becoming more politically active is likely to cause you to lose friends and connections you might have otherwise maintained, then it is entirely possible for political activity to produce a significant and consistent negative return for you!
SO:
Explain to me how my life will become happier and more fulfilled or I'll become wealthier and more influential by becoming way more politically involved (read: devote more than an average of 5 hours/week to political causes and campaigns).
Further, explain how dating someone who is heavily politically involved will make my life happier or more fulfilled, even assuming they agree with me on object-level politics.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link