This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I routinely encounter dating profiles where the bio reads something like "If you're a Tory/voted Leave/support Brexit, swipe left" (in spite of the fact that I live in Ireland - the Republic, not the north).
The uncharitable interpretation of women who write things like this is that their thought process is something like "I could never have anything in common with a man who voted for Brexit, so us going on a date would be a waste of both our time." Which is a worldview I don't agree with.
The charitable interpretation is more like "Even if I did get along with a guy who voted for Brexit and found him attractive, I still couldn't bring myself to date someone with whom I have a fundamental value difference."
I suspect that a lot of this is really insincere signalling, however, and most of these women would hold their nose if they met a guy they really liked whose politics didn't align with their own.
Vice had an amusing article about conservative men trying to pass themselves off as woke in order to get with woke girls.
It's baffling to me that this is common in the Rep. of Ireland. Unless you live really near the border, I'm not sure who they're even talking about... Brits on holiday? Or have 'Tory / Brexit voter' somehow come to serve as political categories in a general sense, in a country where (by their literal definitions) virtually no-one is actually either of those things? In which case, why are these imported terms being used instead of indigenous labels ('If you're a Fine Gael voter, swipe left')? Very odd.
More options
Context Copy link
Oh man, between that Vice article and the OPs Youtube discussion, it just reminds me why I love TheMotte and how awful discussion on non-Motte platforms is. I mean that article ended with this gem: “But also, if you’re a wokefish, it might genuinely be worth considering: why do I hold views that I’m too ashamed to publicly express?”
Are they really this incapable of imagining the shoe being on the other foot? How about trying to date while woke in some small town in Alabama? Could they imagine it then? Or the framing noted by the OP, how my political values are human rights issues, yours are mere politics. Whenever I leave the motte I realize that being able to decouple, discuss things above the object-level and imagine other perspectives with any level of charity is so incredibly rare and precious
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link