site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I loved and agreed with this comment so much I had to think of something to say.

The best part of democracy is that it’s the sublimation of a battle. Count heads, go home alive, prosper. Of course it relies on using sheer number of people as proxy for fighting prowess, but it’s a decent one, and it has paid off handsomely.

So why not sublimate even more battles? Richest side was very likely going to win anyway. Count your money, go home alive, prosper. I completely agree with caplan, it’s a magnificient, tremendously assymetric, super-ethical weapon: even if they had the money, and they don’t, militaristic dictatorships do not have the credibility, or the quality of life to spend the money in.

What do the virtue ethicists here think? Is it dishonorable to make soldiers betray their country, or is it good to save lives and ordnance?

This is why I'm afraid of AI. Once most humans are economically and militarily obsolete, and can't go on strike, we will leak power one way or another, and it will eventually end up in the hands of whoever controls the value-producing robots and chip factories.

At least since WW2 leaflets and other propaganda aimed to convince enemy soldiers to turn themselves in, along with their vehicles if possible, has been commonplace, was it not?

Weird, I only received notification of this comment now. I am almost certain this comment did not appear earlier in the thread, I could not see it.

This is a relatively new measure enforced on new accounts, I think their comments are being manually approved by the mods, or if that's not done, showing up after 24 hours.

I had this same thing happen to me just now with a reply to a comment of mine in a different thread. It also appeared to have just turned 24h old when I got the notification for it, and I'm also almost certain I could not see it before that.

Sure, but this is about offering considerable sums of money – paying for desertion, paying for proof of sabotage, paying at least market price for any equipment they bring with them. I think a russian soldier trusts, and can trust, EU states far more than a japanese soldier in WWII can trust the US government. So the leaflets of the time were far less credible.