site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

One would think that most people who "care about the label of treason" would be perplexed as to why the label would not fit a military officer who resigned his commission and then led an army on a march towards the country's capital.

Care more about the label of treason. If someone doesn't give a single solitary shit about a statue, then merely wanting to be sure you are spelling treason correctly fits the criteria, as does anything beyond that.

It would be too annoying for readers to keep this up though, so I'll provide my perspective. I think the word treason is very serious and should not be thrown around lightly, and I think Lee fought for his home state because, like many Americans at the time, he saw the United States as a union of states - plural, not a singular entity, and Virginia was his home. It was a different country he lived in, unlike the United States as they are recognised today, and I don't feel comfortable accusing someone of something as serious as treason with my limited and anachronistic perspective, particularly when I know a lot of very serious men with much higher stakes in the matter refused to.

I can however, understand why someone living in the United States today would consider him a traitor, which is why I haven't gone tearing through these threads calling everyone who dislikes Lee assholes and why I have been upvoting many of @fuckduck9000's excellent comments despite disagreeing with him.

But you don't appear to have put much thought into it. You don't care why it's treason, you just demand people call him a traitor. You don't seem to care about the topic at all except to use it as a gotcha. As far as I can tell you have recognised an opportunity for a two minute hate and dove in with your boots on. I mean honestly, how does it not matter to you - of all people - that he wasn't convicted of treason?