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Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023

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Slavs. I think slavs who prefered germans to russians were a bit blindsided by the neatly polished hugo boss boots and would have died in much greater numbers under Generalplan ost than under any 5 year plan.

Well the way I heard it, it was less being struck by the the polished hugo boots, and more being more or less able to go about your life as much as the war permitted under the Germans vs. hearing your neighbor getting raped by Red Army soldiers, and hoping you're not next.

Show me people who fought for any side, anywhere, who thought they were wrong.

Some of our fellow posters who read soldiers' journals for a hobby will have to confirm or deny, but I'm sure lots of conscripts found themselves in that position.

I implied my side is morally good, that must mean I’m a nazi.

It's less that, and more that if you ended up in the position of any power, it would be unlikely you would restrain yourself against your enemies, and would end up committing nazi-esque atrocities.

You said ‘people like me’ turn good causes into evil causes, then use nazism as an example

That's also not quite what I was going for. It's more that Nazism would never had happened without your mentality. There's no reason to think that the more generic cause of Make Germany Great Again had to go to such an extreme.

Alas, germans by and large chose loyalty to their country over morality and obedience over conscience. Like lee, like you and hlynka argue, is only right and proper.

The difference between you and me is that I'm perfectly willing to acknowledge the failure modes of my approach. That said, I don't buy that Germany would have descended into genocidal lunacy if the honorable and loyal Erwin Rommel was fuhrer instead of the morally certain Adolf Hitler.

Well the way I heard it, it was less being struck by the the polished hugo boots, and more being more or less able to go about your life as much as the war permitted under the Germans vs. hearing your neighbor getting raped by Red Army soldiers, and hoping you're not next.

Well problem here is that Red Army would loot and rape but USSR had no plans to murder everyone in general and intended to let people be for example educated engineers.

While Wehrmacht was far less likely to commit unorderly destruction, but plans were calling for systematic genocide and mass murder. See Hunger Plan for example.

If I would need to select between my town being overrun by Wehrmacht or Red Army I would take Germans.

If I would need to select living under Third Reich or USSR - USSR was preferable. (Though they were also evil murderous thugs, just less genocidal ones).

Yeah, I agree. But the whole convo started with "It doesn’t matter if I’m a decent person as long as I serve an evil cause". My point is that it does matter, it doesn't literally amount to nothing, even if the evilness of the cause outweighs your personal goodness.

It's less that, and more that if you ended up in the position of any power, it would be unlikely you would restrain yourself against your enemies, and would end up committing nazi-esque atrocities.

Lee and rommel helped the atrocities/slaughter along just as much as if they had personnally, sadistically perpetrated them. What they did was perhaps even worse, as they gave moral horror a sheen of panache and respectability.

You accuse me of imaginary lack of restraint, but what good was their restraint? A few british prisoners thought rommel was a swell chivalrous guy, big deal. Meanwhile the military machine he was the mascotte of was starving soviet POWs in the millions. And lee’s pleasant conversations with his old west point buddies can hardly compensate for thousands of little guys dying in a ditch for nothing.

In effect, they would stab you just like a rabid nazi or Bedford Forrest would have, but they would do so politely and efficiently. Sorry, but you don’t get moral points for being affably evil.


Let’s back up a bit. Forget the woke, the current culture war. I’m not interested in Lee’s statue, but in his moral stature. Let’s say you’re lee, or rommel, or a random officer in the german or newly formed confederate army. You get your marching orders. Your home state, your friends and family, are going along with the program, but you have major reservations about ‘the cause’. What is the morally correct course of action?

Lee and rommel helped the atrocities/slaughter along just as much as if they had personnally, sadistically perpetrated them. What they did was perhaps even worse, as they gave moral horror a sheen of panache and respectability.

No they didn't. No one thinks slavery or the holocaust is more respectable because of Lee / Rommel.

You accuse me of imaginary lack of restraint.

It's imaginary because it is unlikely you will ever be in a position where men will follow your orders to commit atrocities. But you speak with the moral certainty of a crusader, it stands to reason you'd act accordingly given the opportunity.

but what good was their restraint?

I once again refer you to the Wehrmacht vs. Red Army example. If the Wehrmacht had less restraint, you'd likely be using that as proof of how evil their cause was.

Let’s say you’re lee, or rommel, or a random officer in the german or newly formed confederate army. You get your marching orders. Your home state, your friends and family, are going along with the program, but you have major reservations about ‘the cause’. What is the morally correct course of action?

You're the one claiming that sort of question is answerable, not me. The entire point of my framework is that the big questions are hard to answer, which is why doing the small, answerable, things right is so important, and why people like Lee deserve credit for it.

Forget the woke

Lol, no. This is too good of an example to let go.

As an illustration of the above point, I believe the conduct of our medical establishment regarding the transgender issue is the biggest medical scandals since lobotomies. But it is not the fact that they're on the other side of this giant controversy that bothers me about them, it is precisely the little things: the refusal to engage with opposing views, the censorship, the getting people fired from their jobs. I don't think I'm wrong on the issue, but it's not impossible, but if I conduct myself with some semblance of decency I can sleep easy knowing I did what I did with good intentions. This would ring rather hollow if I lowered myself to their level.

With your approach all of that is irrelevant. If I'm wrong, I'm just an evil transphobic chud, and everything done to me is justified. If I'm right, I guess I should be firebombing some gender clinics and WPATH conferences right now, and no one should be able to say shit.

No one thinks slavery or the holocaust is more respectable because of Lee / Rommel.

Strong disagree. Isn’t that what the lost cause is all about? That they were in effect just lee-esque, decent, gentlemenlike men doing their duty. By extension, an institution defended by such men couldn’t be all that bad, could it?

It it is not the fact that they're on the other side of this giant controversy that bothers me about them, it is precisely the little things: the refusal to engage with opposing views, the censorship, the getting people fired from their jobs.

I endorse none of these things, even against nazis, so again complete irrelevancy.


You're the one claiming that sort of question is answerable, not me. The entire point of my framework is that the big questions are hard to answer, which is why doing the small, answerable, things right is so important, and why people like Lee deserve credit for it.

cop-out. This is a far more fundamental disagreement than the rest of the comment. Imo after that admission, you’ve forfeited the right to condemn anything the woke, or anyone else, do. Who knows, maybe hitler was right, it’s unanswerable. All you know is that you approve of Rommel’s good manners.

Strong disagree. Isn’t that what the lost cause is all about? That they were in effect just lee-esque, decent, gentlemenlike men doing their duty. By extension, an institution defended by such men couldn’t be all that bad, could it?

You'd have to talk to a lost-causer about that, I suppose.

I endorse none of these things, even against nazis, so again complete irrelevancy.

I never said you did so that's a deflection, and it's not irrelevant, it directly addresses your argument below.

cop-out.

Not only is it not a cop-out, it would be a glaring contradiction if I answered anything else. You know that, because you've made fun of me when you thought that's what I was doing.

This is a far more fundamental disagreement than the rest of the comment. Imo after that admission, you’ve forfeited the right to condemn anything the woke, or anyone else, do. Who knows, maybe hitler was right, it’s unanswerable. All you know is that you approve of Rommel’s good manners.

Yes, I agree this is the fundamental disagreement. No, I have not forfeited anything, as I outlined in the other argument that you dismissed as irrelevant, yes the woke might very well be right, and I might be wrong about the big questions, but it is the small things that make them evil.

It’s a common enough defense, that’s why I keep accusing FC of moral relativism, but I always have a hard time believing it is a genuine position, as opposed to a one-off tactic. Who would willingly confess to moral incompetence on all the big questions?

You guys are not behaving as if you just want people to be nice, and refuse to judge/abstain from voting on the big questions. No, you act like your side is entirely morally correct, and part of that case is that your opponents aren’t nice (well, sometimes you argue you shouldn’t be nice either because they started it, but whatever).

Who would willingly confess to moral incompetence on all the big questions?

Someone honest about limits of their knowledge.

You guys are not behaving as if you just want people to be nice, and refuse to judge/abstain from voting on the big questions.

At this point I think you're deliberately misrepresenting what I said. Here, again:

I believe the conduct of our medical establishment regarding the transgender issue is the biggest medical scandals since lobotomies. But it is not the fact that they're on the other side of this giant controversy that bothers me about them, it is precisely the little things: the refusal to engage with opposing views, the censorship, the getting people fired from their jobs. I don't think I'm wrong on the issue, but it's not impossible, but if I conduct myself with some semblance of decency I can sleep easy knowing I did what I did with good intentions. This would ring rather hollow if I lowered myself to their level.

This does not boil down to "I just want people to be nice". Can you at least consciously try to paraphrase the above in your words, in a way that you think I'll recognize as my own views?

No, you act like your side is entirely morally correct, and part of that case is that your opponents aren’t nice

That's pretty reductive, but baby steps I suppose. Yes, I did say getting the small things right is more important that answering the grand moral questions, no?

(well, sometimes you argue you shouldn’t be nice either because they started it, but whatever).

Can you give an example?

Can you give an example?

Generally, the sub (and FC) is more partisan right-wing than I am on the topics you highlighted, free speech, not firing people, tolerance for differing opinions among friends.

How is that being not nice because they started it?

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This is devolving into petty squabbling, but I don't think 'wanting people to be nice' is a disparaging re-phrasing of your meaning. You admitted they are small things. The 'good manners' analogy is a more hostile paraphrase. And accusing me of cheka membership and a willingness to commit atrocities is on another level entirely. Anyway, I don't think it's for the speaker to define what can be inferred from his arguments.

Sorry, I think I ninja'd in an edit just before you posted.

I don't mind you being disparaging, it's probably unavoidable when two fundamentally different moral worldviews clash. The "good manners" thing actually works as an analogy, especially since we both recognize it as a hostile paraphrase, which is why I don't object to it. What I do mind is you being reductive. What's the point of elaborating on my worldview and giving examples, if you're just going to pretend I didn't say what I said?

Anyway, I don't think it's for the speaker to define what can be inferred from his arguments.

Yes and no. Sure, go ahead and extrapolate as much as you want from what I said, even if I might disagree with it, but do not dismiss what I said, at least without making it explicit (calling one of my arguments irrelevant was good in that regard, because I could respond to it).