naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #3
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
and appears to be up to 1097 names out of "over 1300" -- so a pretty big sample now. Not sure whether any of the deboonkers have updated their figures, and I'm sure not going through all those names -- but scrolling over it a lot of them do seem to have military ranks next to there names.
Which does not preclude many of them being civilians no longer on active duty, but would be weird if there were many babies like that.
The Haaretz list includes literally zero infants (or children under the age of 4). It includes one child of four years old, two five-year-olds, two six-year-olds, an eight-year-old, one 10-year-old, an 11-year-old, four 12-year-olds, two 13-year-olds, two 14-year-olds, three 15-year-olds, three 16-year-olds, and four 17-year-olds.
There is a filter between civilian, police, soldier, and rescue services. There's a few people listed as civilians with a military rank (one Captain, three Master Sgt., a Cpl., two Sergeant Maj.), and one person marked without a rank but as a Lone Soldier (IDF member without family in the area). Looking through external sources, some of these look to be retired or off-duty, but I can't tell for the remainder.
Of the 1131 names (as of 11/5), 400 have no age listed. Most of those are probably not young children. Most.
There's some possible discussion to be had with someone who wants to engage seriously with the matter, and some deeper analysis available. I just don't see the point doing so with someone that's not taking photographic evidence.
I just don't see the point doing so with someone that's not taking photographic evidence.
I mean I agree that c.e. is just using this stuff as a tool in service of his pre-existing agenda -- but the dearth of photographic evidence is kind of key to the discussion for me. I think you are talking about the picture of the burnt corpse, said to be a baby and then significantly embellished with some weird enhanced MRI to include the baby being bound with barbed wire that you can't see in the photo -- as usual this was bad enough without the embellishment, in that most charitably Hamas was setting houses on fire or attacking them indiscriminately with rockets/mortars/incendiaries.
But the embellishment (as with the beheading story) makes me less supportive of Israeli authorities, not more -- because it seems like they are promoting some sort of 'two wrongs make a right' theory to justify their own plans that they are fully aware will kill a lot of babies.
I'm aware of all the 'laws of war' discussion around this, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me -- I don't support taking actions that will kill babies, no matter how many of one's enemies you can get with the same stone -- and would rather that my country not provide material and/or moral support to people taking these actions.
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Notes -
I'm not that clear on the timelines or any of it really, but Haaretz seems to be updating the article as more names are released; it's here:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-19/ty-article-magazine/israels-dead-the-names-of-those-killed-in-hamas-massacres-and-the-israel-hamas-war/0000018b-325c-d450-a3af-7b5cf0210000
and appears to be up to 1097 names out of "over 1300" -- so a pretty big sample now. Not sure whether any of the deboonkers have updated their figures, and I'm sure not going through all those names -- but scrolling over it a lot of them do seem to have military ranks next to there names.
Which does not preclude many of them being civilians no longer on active duty, but would be weird if there were many babies like that.
The Haaretz list includes literally zero infants (or children under the age of 4). It includes one child of four years old, two five-year-olds, two six-year-olds, an eight-year-old, one 10-year-old, an 11-year-old, four 12-year-olds, two 13-year-olds, two 14-year-olds, three 15-year-olds, three 16-year-olds, and four 17-year-olds.
There is a filter between civilian, police, soldier, and rescue services. There's a few people listed as civilians with a military rank (one Captain, three Master Sgt., a Cpl., two Sergeant Maj.), and one person marked without a rank but as a Lone Soldier (IDF member without family in the area). Looking through external sources, some of these look to be retired or off-duty, but I can't tell for the remainder.
Of the 1131 names (as of 11/5), 400 have no age listed. Most of those are probably not young children. Most.
There's some possible discussion to be had with someone who wants to engage seriously with the matter, and some deeper analysis available. I just don't see the point doing so with someone that's not taking photographic evidence.
I mean I agree that c.e. is just using this stuff as a tool in service of his pre-existing agenda -- but the dearth of photographic evidence is kind of key to the discussion for me. I think you are talking about the picture of the burnt corpse, said to be a baby and then significantly embellished with some weird enhanced MRI to include the baby being bound with barbed wire that you can't see in the photo -- as usual this was bad enough without the embellishment, in that most charitably Hamas was setting houses on fire or attacking them indiscriminately with rockets/mortars/incendiaries.
But the embellishment (as with the beheading story) makes me less supportive of Israeli authorities, not more -- because it seems like they are promoting some sort of 'two wrongs make a right' theory to justify their own plans that they are fully aware will kill a lot of babies.
I'm aware of all the 'laws of war' discussion around this, but ultimately it doesn't matter to me -- I don't support taking actions that will kill babies, no matter how many of one's enemies you can get with the same stone -- and would rather that my country not provide material and/or moral support to people taking these actions.
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