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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   28317 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 23, 2023

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The South seceded because they were tired of the North ignoring all of their agreements and reneging on their established constitution. Yes, the North defected due to slavery, and the South seceded due to that defection. There were also free trade vs protectionist arguments raised where the North was being subsidized while the South was left to fend for itself, on the federal governments dime.

It's interesting how you frame this. You really want to deny that the South seceded over slavery, but rather, it was because the North was being ungentlemanly in not upholding their agreements. Even if we accept that latter claim (which is not really true, North and South both tried to scuttle previous agreements whenever they had the leverage to do so), it is still the South seceding over slavery. The agreements they most objected to being violated were agreements about allowing slavery in new territories, agreements that would have increased the abolitionist vote, agreements about literally suppressing abolitionist speech, and agreements about returning fugitive slaves. "The North defected on the slavery issue and the South seceded because of that" is just a clever way to rephrase "The South seceded over slavery."

North was being ungentlemanly

I would say dishonest, violent, radical, unconstitutional, and illegal rather than ungentlemanly.

it is still the South seceding over slavery

It is the South withdrawing her consent to the Union, and each of her Free and Independent Sovereign States deciding to discard one Union and to form another. And the reason was not because of slavery, but because of federalism and the threat to that status as Free and Independent Sovereign States. Sure enough, after the Civil War, nobody really considered any of the states either free or independent or sovereign, so I'd say they had the right outlook, correctly predicted what their opponents wanted, and correctly resisted it when it became obvious that conflict could not be avoided.

I would say dishonest, violent, radical, unconstitutional, and illegal rather than ungentlemanly.

Well, you can say that, but given that the South literally wanted it to be a capital crime to advocate for abolitionism, I do not believe that they really had much regard for Constitutionality. As for "violence," there was a contemporaneous cartoon about that.

It is the South withdrawing her consent to the Union, and each of her Free and Independent Sovereign States deciding to discard one Union and to form another.

I understand you want "Should states have the right to secede?" to be completely orthogonal to "Should states have the right to maintain slavery?" but every objection to federalism and "sovereignty" was about slavery. In the abstract, sure, there are many interesting arguments to be had about whether the Constitution itself was a betrayal of the original Articles of Confederation. But while I used to buy "states rights" as a legitimate (if misguided) defense for the South, once you start reading history, you realize that the only states rights they really cared enough about to secede over were slavery. Note that one of their core objections was that Northern states would not enforce laws like the Fugitive Slave Act within Northern territories.

you realize that the only states rights they really cared enough about to secede over were slavery

Which is why they didn't agree to the Constitution until they had assurances that it was under their control. I view that they are right in that assessment, you seem to think that they should have just rolled over and quit.

Note that one of their core objections was that Northern states would not enforce laws like the Fugitive Slave Act within Northern territories.

If Massachusetts didn't want to return fugitive slaves, they shouldn't have agreed to the Constitution that requires that of them.

Article IV

Section 2

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

A Person charged in any State with Treason, Felony, or other Crime, who shall flee from Justice, and be found in another State, shall on Demand of the executive Authority of the State from which he fled, be delivered up, to be removed to the State having Jurisdiction of the Crime.

No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.

Making Abolition punishable by death is just as unconstitutional as refusing to return fugitive slaves, by the words of the one and only constitution. Only one side was able to impose their unconstitutional vision on the other.

Which is why they didn't agree to the Constitution until they had assurances that it was under their control. I view that they are right in that assessment, you seem to think that they should have just rolled over and quit.

I am not making an argument about whether or not they were morally or legally in the right. What I am disputing is that they didn't secede over slavery. They did. You're free to argue that they should have been allowed to secede, and you're free to argue that slavery should have remained legal, but that isn't the argument here. I'm just refuting the "states rights, it wasn't about slavery" claim.

Only one side was able to impose their unconstitutional vision on the other.

This is not true. The whole point of the series of (ultimately failed) compromises that led to the Civil War was that both sides were forced to agree to laws they didn't really want to obey, and both sides frequently played fast and loose with those agreements.

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