naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
30331 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Hamas doesn't care what people in the west are calling for.
Actually they do. I suppose they don’t particularly care what the student Union of OMG-Who-The-Hell-Cares State University is calling for, but they definitely care that The White House pressured Israel into allowing humanitarian aid shipments from Egypt.
You are right that calling for Hamas to release the hostages is more of a rhetorical strategy than a realizable demand. What it does is remind everyone that the continued existence of the Hamas government of the Gaza Strip is a massive net negative on the rest of the world, that they won’t even release innocent civilian hostages captured in a terrorist attack without major concessions, that their refusal to comply with the most basic standards of decency places them in the Hobbesian state of nature, where the clear best course of action is to let them die of cholera in their own filth without access to outside food, water, electricity, or fuel.
they won’t even release innocent civilian hostages captured in a terrorist attack without major concessions,
Sorry, but this is misinformation. Hamas did actually release two hostages without major concessions (at least publicly, maybe the IDF struck a deal behind the scenes).
Yes, it is a counter to the claim that they won't release innocent civilian hostages without major concessions, because they observably did. It does nothing to address the claim that they never took hostages and are innocent of such an act, but nobody claimed that so it doesn't have to.
Yes, they didn't release the main bulk of their hostages without getting concessions - i.e. the same approach that Israel takes. You can't really condemn them for that without also condemning Israel, which is why the fact that they actually released two hostages without any concessions is notable and worth mentioning.
They were paid in propaganda and media coverage obviously. And got someone to be on tv begging for the release of I believe her husband whose still captivity.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Actually they do. I suppose they don’t particularly care what the student Union of OMG-Who-The-Hell-Cares State University is calling for, but they definitely care that The White House pressured Israel into allowing humanitarian aid shipments from Egypt.
You are right that calling for Hamas to release the hostages is more of a rhetorical strategy than a realizable demand. What it does is remind everyone that the continued existence of the Hamas government of the Gaza Strip is a massive net negative on the rest of the world, that they won’t even release innocent civilian hostages captured in a terrorist attack without major concessions, that their refusal to comply with the most basic standards of decency places them in the Hobbesian state of nature, where the clear best course of action is to let them die of cholera in their own filth without access to outside food, water, electricity, or fuel.
Sorry, but this is misinformation. Hamas did actually release two hostages without major concessions (at least publicly, maybe the IDF struck a deal behind the scenes).
Release 2 but keep hundreds? Is that really a counter or just something they did to make it look like they could be a reasonable party.
Aren’t they still holding innocent civilians? That’s like Madoff saying I’m not guilty I gave 2% back.
Yes, it is a counter to the claim that they won't release innocent civilian hostages without major concessions, because they observably did. It does nothing to address the claim that they never took hostages and are innocent of such an act, but nobody claimed that so it doesn't have to.
Not exactly. They won’t release the vast majority. It’s like taking 1002 hostages when you wanted a 1000 so now people like you do some technicality.
Yes, they didn't release the main bulk of their hostages without getting concessions - i.e. the same approach that Israel takes. You can't really condemn them for that without also condemning Israel, which is why the fact that they actually released two hostages without any concessions is notable and worth mentioning.
They were paid in propaganda and media coverage obviously. And got someone to be on tv begging for the release of I believe her husband whose still captivity.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I know they released the Americans (lol, could they get any more transparent?)
This is probably due to the SEAL teams and Delta Force units sitting off their coast. America has a long history of hostage rescue of American Citizens in war zones, so releasing US hostages is just self-preservation.
Strong "I am Roman citizen" energy.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
No, they actually released at least one Israeli hostage. https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/freed-israeli-grandmother-is-peace-activist-who-helped-sick-gazans-grandson-says-2023-10-23/
They released the two Americans, and two elderly Israeli women. Only one of them gave an interview.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link