naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
30319 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
The Anglicans / Episcopalians who run the hospital, who are far and away the most unbiased party in this conflict, talk about hundreds of women and children dead: https://twitter.com/sgcjerusalem/status/1714333560679580130. Richard Sewell, who oversees the hospitals, tweeted before the blast that there were thousands seeking shelter in the hospital.
sarker
It isn't happening, and if it is, it's a bad thing
coffee_enjoyer 1yr ago
That guy is clearly simply repeating the casualty numbers from Hamas (he also claims a direct hit on the hospital which did not happen). Not his fault, he's presumably not in gaza himself.
It's impossible for there to have been thousands of people in that courtyard unless they were packed in standing room only like sardines, in which case how could only a few hundred have died? I can buy thousands at the hospital, but not in the courtyard.
Read the thread. It’s disingenuous to imply that hitting the center courtyard where patients and families and refugees gather is not hitting the hospital. And the Anglicans also testify that Israel had hit the hospital on the 14th, and had told them four times to evacuate. And no, he’s not repeating Hamas lines (lol), he is in communication with the hospital leadership.
sarker
It isn't happening, and if it is, it's a bad thing
coffee_enjoyer 1yr ago
So if someone steals something you had on your lawn, you'd say they burglarized your home?
Again, if you think that the courtyard was packed with thousands of people with standing room only and an Israeli strike resulting in fairly minimal property damage resulted in just a few hundred dead - none of this is even close to adding up.
What we are concerned about is the moral substance and not morally-irrelevant detail. The moral substance of burglarizing a home is greater than burglarizing a yard because the trespass violates a greater expectation of privacy and there is less of an element of temptation if something is not clearly visible. Okay… now, what’s the moral substance of attacking a hospital? That you are attacking something where innocent people gather, and where children feel safe in visiting to heal, and where vulnerable people are located. The moral substance doesn’t have to do with crumbing a wall or destroying equipment. As such, you don’t get to reduce the moral magnitude of attacking a hospital because it only took out vulnerable women and children who thought they were safe and who were looking to be healed, and didn’t cause damage to the equipment and facilities. (Hell, if we were concerned about equipment, we should ask how many hospitals worth of equipment have been kept from Palestinians due to the Israeli blockade. A separate matter, of course.)
That photo is frankly stupid. It doesn’t include the full grounds of the courtyard and ignores that many children (who are smaller) were sleeping there with their families — in war time. They’re not Scandinavians waiting for a bus stop.
sarker
It isn't happening, and if it is, it's a bad thing
coffee_enjoyer 1yr ago
It doesn’t include the full grounds of the courtyard
It also doesn't include the thousands who some claim were in the courtyard, merely the hundreds who allegedly died in the blast area. And it really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
The Anglicans / Episcopalians who run the hospital, who are far and away the most unbiased party in this conflict, talk about hundreds of women and children dead: https://twitter.com/sgcjerusalem/status/1714333560679580130. Richard Sewell, who oversees the hospitals, tweeted before the blast that there were thousands seeking shelter in the hospital.
That guy is clearly simply repeating the casualty numbers from Hamas (he also claims a direct hit on the hospital which did not happen). Not his fault, he's presumably not in gaza himself.
It's impossible for there to have been thousands of people in that courtyard unless they were packed in standing room only like sardines, in which case how could only a few hundred have died? I can buy thousands at the hospital, but not in the courtyard.
Read the thread. It’s disingenuous to imply that hitting the center courtyard where patients and families and refugees gather is not hitting the hospital. And the Anglicans also testify that Israel had hit the hospital on the 14th, and had told them four times to evacuate. And no, he’s not repeating Hamas lines (lol), he is in communication with the hospital leadership.
So if someone steals something you had on your lawn, you'd say they burglarized your home?
Again, if you think that the courtyard was packed with thousands of people with standing room only and an Israeli strike resulting in fairly minimal property damage resulted in just a few hundred dead - none of this is even close to adding up.
What we are concerned about is the moral substance and not morally-irrelevant detail. The moral substance of burglarizing a home is greater than burglarizing a yard because the trespass violates a greater expectation of privacy and there is less of an element of temptation if something is not clearly visible. Okay… now, what’s the moral substance of attacking a hospital? That you are attacking something where innocent people gather, and where children feel safe in visiting to heal, and where vulnerable people are located. The moral substance doesn’t have to do with crumbing a wall or destroying equipment. As such, you don’t get to reduce the moral magnitude of attacking a hospital because it only took out vulnerable women and children who thought they were safe and who were looking to be healed, and didn’t cause damage to the equipment and facilities. (Hell, if we were concerned about equipment, we should ask how many hospitals worth of equipment have been kept from Palestinians due to the Israeli blockade. A separate matter, of course.)
That photo is frankly stupid. It doesn’t include the full grounds of the courtyard and ignores that many children (who are smaller) were sleeping there with their families — in war time. They’re not Scandinavians waiting for a bus stop.
It also doesn't include the thousands who some claim were in the courtyard, merely the hundreds who allegedly died in the blast area. And it really doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link