naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
It's this guy -- I can't find the tweet that I was thinking of, nor be arsed to dig through the wayback machine for initial headlines which certainly conveyed the impression that there were many decapitated babies killed in some sort of daycare, with the number forty prominently featured.
Anyways, the soldier talks about plural babies and women decapitated, and the PM's spokesperson also talked about multiple babies and toddlers beheaded at that kibbutz -- so far as I can tell there's zero. So whether the claim is forty or just 'some', it seems to be a lie being promulgated pretty high up in the Israeli government, presumably to gin up support for a brutal response.
I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they cut the head off of even one person, nevermind any babies -- so your second motte is still a lie AFAIC.
Also I think you are overlooking how media ops work -- the thing is kicked off by some official-ish motte like 'i saw babies, toddlers and women decapitated -- there were forty dead babies taken out of there' and then other operatives working for the same org promulgate the bailey version specifically, citing the motte and drumming up fear and outrage.
AshLael
Just here to farm downvotes
jkf 1yr ago·Edited 1yr ago
I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they cut the head off of even one person, nevermind any babies -- so your second motte is still a lie AFAIC
But that's exactly the point. I can as easily say "well maybe no babies got beheaded but some definitely got incinerated, so that's just as bad".
Fudging the extent of the mistruth is no different to fudging the extent of the atrocity. And I don't much mind if someone is just being generally imprecise and not paying attention to every little detail of the conflict - people have lives - but if you're going to come in and complain about misinformation, I think you have a responsibility to get your own information right.
(Also, uh, while I also haven't seen any Hamas decapitations myself I absolutely saw them try repeatedly to decapitate a poor Filipino dude with a garden hoe and that was seriously fucked up)
You didn't address the second part -- and I'm not too sure about any babies being incinerated either, the only reason to think that that's what the Twitter pictures showed is some level of trust in the people sharing them. Which I lack.
Fudging the extent of the mistruth is no different to fudging the extent of the atrocity.
If no women, children, or toddlers (which is exactly what the guy said) have been beheaded, what am I fudging? That's a straight up lie. Plenty of people were/are talking about the beheaded babies (includinging Joe Goddamn Biden), so if you want to be charitable and suggest that they are just misinformed that's fine -- but I think that at least some of them were adding that exaggeration (of the original lie) deliberately. (because they work for IDF SIGINT)
You're fudging which lie he told. It's the difference between "Fauci said the vaccines would prevent transmission" and "Fauci said the vaccines would cure erectile dysfunction". Both statements are untrue, but he only said one of them.
If you want to criticize Biden for his statements, go ahead - but he's not the same guy as the soldier.
Well there are lots of lies to choose from -- Biden clearly lied about seeing the photos -- surely if the photos existed he would have gone to lengths to procure them, since being caught lying is pretty embarrassing for the President.
But the IDF guy (based on current evidence) was also lying about seeing beheaded women and children -- since so far there is no evidence that this happened at all.
And whichever people spread the '40 beheaded babies' initially were also lying, pretty clearly -- so which of these lies are you saying I shouldn't be criticizing?
since being caught lying is pretty embarrassing for the President.
Lol.
which of these lies are you saying I shouldn't be criticizing?
The ones that were not said by the people you accuse of them.
E.g. upthread @coffee_enjoyer said "an IDF spokesman does not say "40 decapitated babies" by accident." The clear implication of this is that an IDF spokesman said "40 decapitated babies". But this is not true.
It's this sort of lazy exaggeration that I am objecting to.
Well object away -- I don't think that particular item started spreading by itself, but if we want to stick to non-speculative objections I object to the fact that IDF-dude said that he was just back from seeing beheaded women, toddlers and babies (syntax unclear, but at least one of each, I would interpret his words as 2+ in some of the categories) -- which at this point is a total lie. Also Bibi's spokeswoman who repeated much the same thing, which he should probably be take responsibility for (unless she's gone rogue or something). And Biden ofc -- I don't think "I'm a moron who just repeats whatever people tell me with added embellishment" is a good excuse here.
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Notes -
It's this guy -- I can't find the tweet that I was thinking of, nor be arsed to dig through the wayback machine for initial headlines which certainly conveyed the impression that there were many decapitated babies killed in some sort of daycare, with the number forty prominently featured.
Anyways, the soldier talks about plural babies and women decapitated, and the PM's spokesperson also talked about multiple babies and toddlers beheaded at that kibbutz -- so far as I can tell there's zero. So whether the claim is forty or just 'some', it seems to be a lie being promulgated pretty high up in the Israeli government, presumably to gin up support for a brutal response.
Sure - but if you're going to complain about imprecise accusations, it's fair to ask for precision in the complaint.
Motte: Hamas killed children horribly.
Bailey: Hamas decapitated 40 babies.
It's entirely fair to object to those two claims being blurred and conflated. But it's the same kind of dishonest to fudge the lines between:
Motte: A soldier said "They cut head off children."
Bailey: An IDF spokesman said 40 babies were decapitated.
I haven't seen anything that convinces me that they cut the head off of even one person, nevermind any babies -- so your second motte is still a lie AFAIC.
Also I think you are overlooking how media ops work -- the thing is kicked off by some official-ish motte like 'i saw babies, toddlers and women decapitated -- there were forty dead babies taken out of there' and then other operatives working for the same org promulgate the bailey version specifically, citing the motte and drumming up fear and outrage.
But that's exactly the point. I can as easily say "well maybe no babies got beheaded but some definitely got incinerated, so that's just as bad".
Fudging the extent of the mistruth is no different to fudging the extent of the atrocity. And I don't much mind if someone is just being generally imprecise and not paying attention to every little detail of the conflict - people have lives - but if you're going to come in and complain about misinformation, I think you have a responsibility to get your own information right.
(Also, uh, while I also haven't seen any Hamas decapitations myself I absolutely saw them try repeatedly to decapitate a poor Filipino dude with a garden hoe and that was seriously fucked up)
You didn't address the second part -- and I'm not too sure about any babies being incinerated either, the only reason to think that that's what the Twitter pictures showed is some level of trust in the people sharing them. Which I lack.
If no women, children, or toddlers (which is exactly what the guy said) have been beheaded, what am I fudging? That's a straight up lie. Plenty of people were/are talking about the beheaded babies (includinging Joe Goddamn Biden), so if you want to be charitable and suggest that they are just misinformed that's fine -- but I think that at least some of them were adding that exaggeration (of the original lie) deliberately. (because they work for IDF SIGINT)
You're fudging which lie he told. It's the difference between "Fauci said the vaccines would prevent transmission" and "Fauci said the vaccines would cure erectile dysfunction". Both statements are untrue, but he only said one of them.
If you want to criticize Biden for his statements, go ahead - but he's not the same guy as the soldier.
Well there are lots of lies to choose from -- Biden clearly lied about seeing the photos -- surely if the photos existed he would have gone to lengths to procure them, since being caught lying is pretty embarrassing for the President.
But the IDF guy (based on current evidence) was also lying about seeing beheaded women and children -- since so far there is no evidence that this happened at all.
And whichever people spread the '40 beheaded babies' initially were also lying, pretty clearly -- so which of these lies are you saying I shouldn't be criticizing?
Lol.
The ones that were not said by the people you accuse of them.
E.g. upthread @coffee_enjoyer said "an IDF spokesman does not say "40 decapitated babies" by accident." The clear implication of this is that an IDF spokesman said "40 decapitated babies". But this is not true.
It's this sort of lazy exaggeration that I am objecting to.
Well object away -- I don't think that particular item started spreading by itself, but if we want to stick to non-speculative objections I object to the fact that IDF-dude said that he was just back from seeing beheaded women, toddlers and babies (syntax unclear, but at least one of each, I would interpret his words as 2+ in some of the categories) -- which at this point is a total lie. Also Bibi's spokeswoman who repeated much the same thing, which he should probably be take responsibility for (unless she's gone rogue or something). And Biden ofc -- I don't think "I'm a moron who just repeats whatever people tell me with added embellishment" is a good excuse here.
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